One of the problems when reefing my genny is trying to move the blocks forward. What are pros and cons of using a vang on the rail as a barbor hauler to effect the moving of the blocks forward?
use barbor hauler when reefing roller furler?
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Moveable fairlead blocks
Most people have installed these, many using the Garhauer "E-Z Glide" system. This link is an early one on the subject, and more have been posted on our C34 website with more pictures of improved installations. http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3894.0.html
Our C34 Fleet 1 San Francisco skippers find it very helpful not only for reefing but sail shaping.
Do a search on the C34 MB for EZ Glide with or without the hyphens.
W/out the hyphens: this one has good pictures from the Garhauer booth at a boat show http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4076.0.html
Barber haulers are usually used to move the jib clew athwartship, not fore and aft. You need fore and aft movement of the jib fairlead car for reefing a jib on a furler.
Most people have installed these, many using the Garhauer "E-Z Glide" system. This link is an early one on the subject, and more have been posted on our C34 website with more pictures of improved installations. http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3894.0.html
Our C34 Fleet 1 San Francisco skippers find it very helpful not only for reefing but sail shaping.
Do a search on the C34 MB for EZ Glide with or without the hyphens.
W/out the hyphens: this one has good pictures from the Garhauer booth at a boat show http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4076.0.html
Barber haulers are usually used to move the jib clew athwartship, not fore and aft. You need fore and aft movement of the jib fairlead car for reefing a jib on a furler.
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Sorry. I need to explain more. I have a 155 genny. My blocks are on the rail. I do not have tracks or really any place to put them. What I have done in the past is to preset the blocks before I tack to where I think they need to be. If I have to move them I have to tack. I am looking for a better way for when I am single handing. I also want to be able to fine tune on longer runs.
Chuck, what Stu is trying to tell you is that adjustable genoa cars are the easiest way to set the lead angle for your sheets. They are infinitely adjustable and very quick and easy to use. Having to tack each time you need to make an adjustment is a PITA and still does not get you the proper adjustment needed for good sail shape. You will need to install tracks to have them but once you have them you'll wonder how you ever got along without them.
Chuck: Unfortunately there is no way short of installing tracks that will improve the efficiency of your system. At first I was not sure of what you were talking about until I googled a Hunter33. No matter what you are trying to do to improve your setup a barber hauler is not the answer.
Here’s what you are up against and it does not matter if you have a masthead or fractional rig. I don’t know which you have but I assume it is a masthead rig and the 155 is your engine and you have to have a way to adjust it. With the mainsail some sail trim controls only adjust one or two things. It is different with the jib. The fairleads are used to adjust EVERYTHING. Sailors (and all humans) will do what is easy and not what is hard. Trying to adjust a pin type track setup is very hard – the setup you have is worse. The result is sailors don’t adjust their fairleads and merely “set them and forget them”. The result is your single setting is like the broken clock which is right twice a day. Your setting is right for one wind condition and point of sail and wrong for all others.
I’m not sure how you decide where to place your single fairlead but there is a simple procedure you could use to get it right every time. What you do is check the break of the jib just before you come head to wind when tacking. What you are looking for is for the sail to break evenly from top to bottom. If it does your right on. If the bottom breaks first you move your single position or pin aft. If the top breaks first you move the single position or pin type forward.
The ultimate setup is the Garhauer adjustable fairlead system. Once you try it you’ll wonder what took you so long to get one. You can literally dial in adjustments.
I could not find a decent picture of your deck area but I think there is room for you to install tracks.
Here’s what you are up against and it does not matter if you have a masthead or fractional rig. I don’t know which you have but I assume it is a masthead rig and the 155 is your engine and you have to have a way to adjust it. With the mainsail some sail trim controls only adjust one or two things. It is different with the jib. The fairleads are used to adjust EVERYTHING. Sailors (and all humans) will do what is easy and not what is hard. Trying to adjust a pin type track setup is very hard – the setup you have is worse. The result is sailors don’t adjust their fairleads and merely “set them and forget them”. The result is your single setting is like the broken clock which is right twice a day. Your setting is right for one wind condition and point of sail and wrong for all others.
I’m not sure how you decide where to place your single fairlead but there is a simple procedure you could use to get it right every time. What you do is check the break of the jib just before you come head to wind when tacking. What you are looking for is for the sail to break evenly from top to bottom. If it does your right on. If the bottom breaks first you move your single position or pin aft. If the top breaks first you move the single position or pin type forward.
The ultimate setup is the Garhauer adjustable fairlead system. Once you try it you’ll wonder what took you so long to get one. You can literally dial in adjustments.
I could not find a decent picture of your deck area but I think there is room for you to install tracks.
I agree and was not aware of the "situation" you had on your boat. The additional feedback is correct.
Thanks to all. Mr. Don that is what I try to do. After playing with the sail for a while I can kind of guesstimate where the block should be. I read your book and knew about the sail breaking evenly. What I was thinking was that I could set the block up for full sail towards the stern, and then use a block and tackle to pull the sheet down towards the rail like a barber hauler. Would this not effectively change the angle of the sheet to the sail?
Chuck: Your system sounds good on paper and maybe it would work but you are putting a lot of effort into "jerry rigging" your fairlead setup.
Stu, Alan, myself plus a bunch of other guys on this forum have been around the horn (block) a few times and sail trim problems/solution are not our first rodeo. In other words, we know what we are talking about. Believe me spend your time thinking your way around installing a track setup. Even if you go to a pin type setup you'll be a lot happier then this thing you're messing with now. You will never be able to pull the clew of the sail low enough with the block system. If you want to go first class step up from the pin type fairlead to the Garhauer system.
One other thing - think about a longer track in the event you get rid of the 155 and go to a smaller jib. Actually, adding more track is simple. Also, think about mounting the track in the middle of the deck area to take advantage of the inside/outside track sail trim situations you run into. That way you'll get a bit of the best of both worlds.
Thank you for buying my book and chart.
Stu, Alan, myself plus a bunch of other guys on this forum have been around the horn (block) a few times and sail trim problems/solution are not our first rodeo. In other words, we know what we are talking about. Believe me spend your time thinking your way around installing a track setup. Even if you go to a pin type setup you'll be a lot happier then this thing you're messing with now. You will never be able to pull the clew of the sail low enough with the block system. If you want to go first class step up from the pin type fairlead to the Garhauer system.
One other thing - think about a longer track in the event you get rid of the 155 and go to a smaller jib. Actually, adding more track is simple. Also, think about mounting the track in the middle of the deck area to take advantage of the inside/outside track sail trim situations you run into. That way you'll get a bit of the best of both worlds.
Thank you for buying my book and chart.
I agree. With what? Making sure the track can go way forward. You may never end up in a place like this where a 90% jib is BIG because it's windy! Really. Most tracks go so far back for 150s but further than even that requires, but never go far enough forward to accommodate reefing a smaller headsail. My two jibs are so cut that the furthest forward pin fairlead position cuts it, but my sails are a 90% and a 110%. Anything smaller wouldn't work regardless of where the clew is, high or low. More forward than you can possibly envision is my recommendation. Helps when reefing a bigger sail, too, but that 30% reefing is a pretty good estimate of usefulness of a reefed jib. I choose not to, sail size for weather, but then we only have two seasons!
You just can't get enough downward pull with your suggested idea. I fully understand you BH concept application, but the BH doesn't need specificity in location because it adjusts much more easily than you can even move a car on a track. Your idea is the front half of the system we have mentioned.
But we have a fixed pin for the fairlead, all the way forward, with our two sails because that's how they are cut, both are tiny up top so moving the car back doesn't matter for going downwind, so we don't bother. Sail cut and track position have much to do with each other.
You just can't get enough downward pull with your suggested idea. I fully understand you BH concept application, but the BH doesn't need specificity in location because it adjusts much more easily than you can even move a car on a track. Your idea is the front half of the system we have mentioned.
But we have a fixed pin for the fairlead, all the way forward, with our two sails because that's how they are cut, both are tiny up top so moving the car back doesn't matter for going downwind, so we don't bother. Sail cut and track position have much to do with each other.
A little humor here!!!!!!!
If you put the track in the middle of the deck as Don suggests: THEN you can use your barber hauler in the real way it was intended to be used!
C30s have short tracks jib sheet tracks on their cabintops!
If you put the track in the middle of the deck as Don suggests: THEN you can use your barber hauler in the real way it was intended to be used!
C30s have short tracks jib sheet tracks on their cabintops!
Thanks again. Mr. Don you are correct that I am trying to "jerry rig" a solution. If nothing else this has been a good mental exercise.
I would love to have a track system. In fact I would love to have an inner and outer track. A couple of the boats I have raced on had them and we definitely used them to their advantage. I have always just had to make my adjustments by moving the blocks. Most of the time my wife is on board. That allows me to tweak things nicely. The problem is that my deck does not have room for a track. It would be just too much in the way. It would be right where one has to walk.
The other problem I have is that in two weeks I am racing my boat in a 50 mile single handed race. This race is for bragging rights of the "island" (our marina). Last year we had a large storm come through with sustained 34 knot winds for a while. My sails were old and at that time and I did not understand fairlead adjustment so when I tried to reef the jenny I got a terrible sail shape that could not even power the boat. I wound up just heaving to for about two hours till the winds slacked. By then I had an extra four hours to make up. Now when I reef I move the car forward and get great shape and continue on. I am just trying to figure out a way to do it from the cockpit by myself.
Thanks again. Your opinions are appreciated. BTW your book is great. It has definitely made me sail more efficiently. I got the silver to prove it. It is funny how people that have been racing for a long time just “get it close” and go with it. That little bit more really does make a difference.
I would love to have a track system. In fact I would love to have an inner and outer track. A couple of the boats I have raced on had them and we definitely used them to their advantage. I have always just had to make my adjustments by moving the blocks. Most of the time my wife is on board. That allows me to tweak things nicely. The problem is that my deck does not have room for a track. It would be just too much in the way. It would be right where one has to walk.
The other problem I have is that in two weeks I am racing my boat in a 50 mile single handed race. This race is for bragging rights of the "island" (our marina). Last year we had a large storm come through with sustained 34 knot winds for a while. My sails were old and at that time and I did not understand fairlead adjustment so when I tried to reef the jenny I got a terrible sail shape that could not even power the boat. I wound up just heaving to for about two hours till the winds slacked. By then I had an extra four hours to make up. Now when I reef I move the car forward and get great shape and continue on. I am just trying to figure out a way to do it from the cockpit by myself.
Thanks again. Your opinions are appreciated. BTW your book is great. It has definitely made me sail more efficiently. I got the silver to prove it. It is funny how people that have been racing for a long time just “get it close” and go with it. That little bit more really does make a difference.
Another thought about controlling twist by adjusting the fairleads.
This summer I have had the privilege of sailing a lugger rigged yawl. The main is boomless. Very much like a jib. The main sheet is angled back to a block at the foot of the mizzen. No traveler. I know this sounds crazy but the only way to adjust the twist is by raising or lowering the main on the mast. Think about it. Raising the main up the mast has the same effect as moving a fairlead car forward. Lowering the main on the mast has the effect of moving the car back. Now I am only talking a few inches but it really make a lot of difference in sail shape and speed. The previous owner said he had never thought if it this way. Again thanks to Mr. Don’s book.
This summer I have had the privilege of sailing a lugger rigged yawl. The main is boomless. Very much like a jib. The main sheet is angled back to a block at the foot of the mizzen. No traveler. I know this sounds crazy but the only way to adjust the twist is by raising or lowering the main on the mast. Think about it. Raising the main up the mast has the same effect as moving a fairlead car forward. Lowering the main on the mast has the effect of moving the car back. Now I am only talking a few inches but it really make a lot of difference in sail shape and speed. The previous owner said he had never thought if it this way. Again thanks to Mr. Don’s book.
Well, shoot,
you can move the main or other sail up and down the mast or forestay, or you can move the position of the line that holds the clew. Over the years they've figured it's easier to move the latter than do the former. Great description, thanks.
you can move the main or other sail up and down the mast or forestay, or you can move the position of the line that holds the clew. Over the years they've figured it's easier to move the latter than do the former.
Great description, thanks.
You're talking about a twing, or tweaker, for you jibsheet
You're idea sounds feasible, and worth a try on such short notice. If you've ever sailed with a spinnaker you'd be familiar with the "tweaker" or "twing" which acts as a lead adjuster for the guys.... your idea is essentially a heavier version of this. I'd give it a try on a mild day, to work out the kinks. You'll need two blocks for each side, and a secondary winch. One block at the end of the tweaker line. Then another block on the toe rail for the tweaker line to run through back to the secondary winch. Even though you're still going to spend over $150 on new blocks, line, cleats etc. give it a shot. In the end, though, you'll want to install a track.
I looked at a picture of a '80 hunter 33. There appears to be plenty of room for a 1" or 1 1/4 inch track on the deck, adjacent to the toe rail. What's the problem? The track only needs to be a few feet long. You can put a pin type to start and move up to the EZ glide later. Get the standard, 1" or 1.25" T-track, not the Harken type(it's proprietary). Anyway, shop around.. you should find it for less than $10 a foot. Don't pay extra for the close spaced pinholes because you're going to get the ez glide in the near future.
You're idea sounds feasible, and worth a try on such short notice. If you've ever sailed with a spinnaker you'd be familiar with the "tweaker" or "twing" which acts as a lead adjuster for the guys.... your idea is essentially a heavier version of this. I'd give it a try on a mild day, to work out the kinks. You'll need two blocks for each side, and a secondary winch. One block at the end of the tweaker line. Then another block on the toe rail for the tweaker line to run through back to the secondary winch. Even though you're still going to spend over $150 on new blocks, line, cleats etc. give it a shot. In the end, though, you'll want to install a track.
I looked at a picture of a '80 hunter 33. There appears to be plenty of room for a 1" or 1 1/4 inch track on the deck, adjacent to the toe rail. What's the problem? The track only needs to be a few feet long. You can put a pin type to start and move up to the EZ glide later. Get the standard, 1" or 1.25" T-track, not the Harken type(it's proprietary). Anyway, shop around.. you should find it for less than $10 a foot. Don't pay extra for the close spaced pinholes because you're going to get the ez glide in the near future.
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Track length for starters
Just the opposite from earlier suggestions. It needs to be long if he's got a larger jib and wants to reef it down and actually control it. If he buys a short track now, then putting an EZ Glide on it will be useless, or he'll have to add track later, which is doable but a pain to properly line up.
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Your idea will definitely work
You can use a block and tackle along with a block on your jib sheet. Bring the sheet through your usual block position to give a fair lead to your winches. Attach the block and tackle forward. My dad has done it for years on his Bristol 40. It is infinitely adjustable and you will be able to get a better shape. The disadvantage is not being able to control the lateral positioning of your lead which a block on a track will do. But you are not racing anyway!
You can use a block and tackle along with a block on your jib sheet. Bring the sheet through your usual block position to give a fair lead to your winches. Attach the block and tackle forward. My dad has done it for years on his Bristol 40. It is infinitely adjustable and you will be able to get a better shape. The disadvantage is not being able to control the lateral positioning of your lead which a block on a track will do. But you are not racing anyway!
Okay...... so maybe 4 - 6 feet. Just trying to encourage him to lay the track no matter how long.
PT, I don't understand this description at all. "Bring the block forward..." To where? A picture or a more detailed description would be very helpful.
Stu -
You need at least two blocks per jib sheet ....
One block on the rail (in the normal 'fashion' of jib sheet control) but with the lead angle set up so that the jib/genoa is pulled somewhat flat along the foot.
The second block is attached (typically directly vertical 'under' the clew position) on the rail (and much farther forward of block #1). A second 'control line' is lead to the forward block on the rail then to an additional (some use a snatchblock) block (or simple tied loop) that affixes TO the jibsheet between the clew and its normal fairlead block.
To adjust the fairlead angle (of the jibsheet) you simply pull-in/adjust the line that controls the 'forward' block which then pulls the 'normal' jibsheet down ..... and thereby controls the proper jibsheet fairlead angle and not having to move the position of block #1 back and forth along the rail. This was the way fairlead angles were adjusted before the invention of 'genoa tracks'. This is a very FAST way of adjusting the fairlead angle; but, requires an 'extra line' + block per side.
If this isnt clear, imagine a jib sheet attached to a relatively high clewed jib: put your foot on the jibsheet somewhere between the fairlead block and the clew -------and then push down with your foot and watch that the jib fairlead angle drastically changes. "Twing !!!!"
You need at least two blocks per jib sheet ....
One block on the rail (in the normal 'fashion' of jib sheet control) but with the lead angle set up so that the jib/genoa is pulled somewhat flat along the foot.
The second block is attached (typically directly vertical 'under' the clew position) on the rail (and much farther forward of block #1). A second 'control line' is lead to the forward block on the rail then to an additional (some use a snatchblock) block (or simple tied loop) that affixes TO the jibsheet between the clew and its normal fairlead block.
To adjust the fairlead angle (of the jibsheet) you simply pull-in/adjust the line that controls the 'forward' block which then pulls the 'normal' jibsheet down ..... and thereby controls the proper jibsheet fairlead angle and not having to move the position of block #1 back and forth along the rail. This was the way fairlead angles were adjusted before the invention of 'genoa tracks'. This is a very FAST way of adjusting the fairlead angle; but, requires an 'extra line' + block per side.
If this isnt clear, imagine a jib sheet attached to a relatively high clewed jib: put your foot on the jibsheet somewhere between the fairlead block and the clew -------and then push down with your foot and watch that the jib fairlead angle drastically changes. "Twing !!!!"
two blocks for jib sheet lead clew point
Thanks, Rich, got it, understood fully. Kinda like the moving the sail up and down on the mast idea in reverse, right?
Thanks, Rich, got it, understood fully. Kinda like the moving the sail up and down on the mast idea in reverse, right?
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