Do I really need it?

Franklin · Sep 18, 2009

1) it's not good to use the taveler as a vang also...puts too much stress on the deck that will eventually lead to noises down below.

2) that traveler can't work as a vang on a broadreach.

3) by using it as a vang also, you are limiting the real effect of the traveler....to be able to dump the wind in a hurry without the boom slamming against the spreaders.

You should be setting the vang as tight as possible before raising the sail, then raise the sail, then move traveler all the way to windward, then let out mainsheet to set angle...or do those first and then raise the mainsail. Then let out the vang until you get it where you want it (much much easier to let out vang than to bring in vang).

In otherwords, the traveler is for safety and minor adjustments to angle, not to pull down on the boom. If you want to get rid of something, get rid of the traveler.

Alan · Sep 18, 2009

Don,

I'm quite sure that Don Guillette will jump in on this soon. You need a basic grounding in sail trim controls and what they do. I strongly suggest you acquire Don Guillette's Sail Trim Guide and read it. It will explain the four basic components of sail trim and how you make those adjustments. For the time being, don't remove your vang. It is a vital sail trim control that you will learn how to use and often.

sand sailor · Sep 18, 2009

with your traveller atop the cabin at mid boom the vang isnt as noticeable as it would be if the main sheet were mid or aft cockpit like mine but where you will notice it the most is in light wind conditions going down wind it helps hold the sail shape more consistantly

Joe · Sep 19, 2009

The vang and the traveller both support the mainsheet. They complement, rather than exclude, each other. Mainsheet and traveller work together when the boom is over the boat, such as on a close reach or beam reach. The mainsheet controls twist, the traveller controls angle of attack. As the boom is let out, further from the range of the traveller, the mainsheet can no longer pull down on the boom so the vang takes over to control twist and the mainsheet becomes the angle of attack control.

Your problem is you see the mid-boom mainsheet configuration as too similar to the vang.... the reality is the traveller and the vang are at opposite ends of the boom control array, with the mainsheet in the center.

No stupid questions.... just stupid solutions. Keep the vang. Read the sail trim book. Have fun.

Don Guillette · Sep 19, 2009

As Alan knows I love these questions!!

ALL the sail trim controls for the main and jib were put on boats for a reason. Let's cut to the chase as to the fuction of the boom vang and the traveler.

The traveler is the primary control for adjusting ANGLE OF ATTACK. In fact, the angle of attack is the ONLY element of sail trim the traveler adjust as opposed to other controls that adjust other element and there in lies the problem. The secondary control for adjusting angle of attack is the mainsheet. Lots of sailors prefer to use the mainsheet to adjust the angle of attack. I do not and here's why. When you make an adjustment with the mainsheet your also adjusting TWIST and DRAFT POSITION. Let's say two boats are sailing side by side and are hit by a gust. To compensate for the gust the other boat dumps the mainsheet. In addition to changing the angle of attack he also has induced twist into the sail and moved the draft position all of which have to be adjusted after the gust passes. My boat dumps the traveler only. I've done nothing to the shape of the sail but have reduced the angle of attack. When the gust passes I merely put the traveler back to its original position and sail on.

The BOOM VANG is the primary sail trim control for the adjusting TWIST. The mainsheet is the other. The boom does a better job.

SOOO, I would not remove either the traveler or boom vang and now that you know the rest of the story neither would you.

As a final note, if you want to be a good sail trimmer you have to completely understand draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. You then have to understand the function of each sail trim control for your main and jib as they relate to each of the 4 elements. If you don't have that understanding sail trim will never make any sense to you. You are just guessing at sail trim adjustment.

Franklin · Sep 19, 2009

Don:

If you have the vang set already and let the mainsheet out, you will not be changing the twist as the boom vang will not allow the boom to rise. So yes, you can adjust the angle of attack with the mainsheet and not effect twist. Personally, I do like to use my traveler to adjust angle of attack, especially in gusts, but a boat does not need it. Many boats don't have one but they do have a vang and their sail shape does not suffer from it.

Don Guillette · Sep 19, 2009

Franklin: Let’s go back to the original question. Hunterdon31 wants to eliminate the boom vang.

Your conclusion is correct but you have expanded the discussion and you’re (Stu is this spelling right - I’m not sure!!) making my point that a sailor has to have a complete understanding of the function of all sail trim controls and know exactly how they interact with each other and obviously you have this understanding. Ironically, a sail trim forum friend of mine from So Ca called me today to ask if I could expand on the use of the traveler and I was about to when I read your message. My friend is a lurker and was afraid he’d be asking a silly question. There are no silly questions. I’ve heard every sail trim question there is – some more then 10 times.

There are two sail trim controls for the main that control ANGLE OF ATTACK. The primary control is the traveler and the other is the mainsheet. I have never seen a boat over 28’ that does not have a traveler but I’m sure some lister will point one out to me.

It is difficult to sit here with my ships model as I frequently do and know for sure if what you say is correct but it appears logical. A rigid or soft vang would hold the boom in place. The rigid vang is in fact acting like the traveler in this discussion but I’m not sure because I NEVER use the mainsheet to adjust the angle of attack. Doesn’t make me right or wrong. I just use what works for me but I would like to try the mainsheet to see what happens, if anything, to the shape of the main but even if it worked I wouldn’t use it. When my boat is heeling excessively I can dial in the amount of heel with the traveler. In other words, to reduce heel I drop the traveler, which brings the boat back onto its feet and then crank back in to get to about 12 to 15 degrees of heel. I could probably get the same result with the mainsheet but the straight track traveler is mechanically better suited for the job.

Getting back to the original question. If Don eliminates the vang on his Hunter31 and uses the mainsheet for whatever he is trying to do, the shape of the sail is going to change. Additionally, the boom vang is the primary TWIST sail trim control for the main – the mainsheet is the second – and adjusting twist with only the mainsheet is not the way to go. The boom vang is the devise to use. If all you’ve got is the mainsheet then you’re (STU?) stuck with what you have.

Franklin · Sep 19, 2009

Don Guillette said:
... I have never seen a boat over 28’ that does not have a traveler but I’m sure some lister will point one out to me.....

Who said a boat has to be bigger than 28'? My statement wasn't to any boat or boat size, it's to all boats. No boat needs a traveler. You can get the exact sail shape you want without one. You can't however, get the exact sail shape you want at all times without a boom vang.

Take the J22s....they are racing boats which rely on perfect sail shape, but most don't have travelers on them and many racing rules don't allow them either.

So I stand by my statement 100%, you do not need a traveler. I will add though that it is nice to have one and I use mine 10x more than I use my mainsheet. You do need a boom vang though if you want top performance.

Franklin · Sep 19, 2009

But as to point one out, the 1995 Hunter 33 doesn't have a traveler. That is a $100,000 boat (new...just guessing...I didn't buy one) that they know doesn't need one so they used the space for speakers instead of a traveler. Hunter Marine isn't idiots, they aren't going to design a boat that is not going to sail good. They know it's not needed.

Stu Jackson · Sep 19, 2009

Vang & traveler

Don, your spelling improvements are an indication of how well you're doing!

Franklin, so even if it is true, what difference does it make? Don's right, 'cuz the easiest way to adjust the angle of attack is the traveler anyway - the traveler has a lot less blocks and, hence, amount of line to readjust, than the manisheet. So even if the vang kept the boom down if the mainsheet was loosened, all it would do is move the boom horizontally which the traveler does more easily.

Regardless, I'm always playing the combination of traveler, vang and mainsheet.

In answer to the original question, the vang is incredibly important going downwind. The mainsheet is all the way out, the traveler is to leeward and the main can only be flattened with the vang.

The use of the vang as only an upwind device is sometimes greatly misunderstood.

Franklin · Sep 19, 2009

To any who wish to answer this.... if you are only allowed to have one, which do you choise, Boom Vang or Traveler?

And don't say I want both because in this excersize, you only get one.

Stu Jackson · Sep 19, 2009

vang

simple logic

so????

Don Guillette · Sep 19, 2009

Boom vang.

You could also ask to list in order of importance the "4 elements of sail trim" - draft position, draft depth, twist or angle of attack?

Without POWER the boat won't move so I need draft depth (belly) and angle of attack. Without those 2 elements the boat doesn't move. I really don't need the boom vang for either of them. I can adjust angle of attack with the mainsheet. Draft depth is adjusted with the outhaul but that wasn't the question. The next most impotant element is twist and while draft depth and angle of attack are very close together twist is next and very important because it also controls power -twist off the top of the main or jib and you lose power. The best twist adjuster is the boom vang and for running down wind you can't be without it.

Draft position is a distant 4th and most folks don't know what it is anyway but the boom vang is an important sail trim adjuster for draft position.

So the only thing the traveler adjusts is angle of attack. It has no effect on the other 3 element (draft depth, draft position or twist) so in the context of your question it has to go.

Don Guillette · Sep 20, 2009

Hunterdon31: This message is really directed to all beginners to intermediates and I’ll get to your question at the end. Here’s the problem with beginners learning sail trim and I get it all the time at seminars, teaching on boats and here on the sail trim forum.

Using a pilots analogy, the student wants to do take off and landings and know what the flaps do before completing ground school or a beginner golfer wants to only talk about his grip and then start hitting balls all to the detriment of the other aspect of the swing that are needed to get the ball to go to the same place twice.

ALL the sail trim controls for the main and jib work together and they must be learned together, which is not easy to do. During the first 5 minutes of my presentation I explain to the participants that the next 60 minutes are going to be confusing because I’ll be using terms you’re not familiar with and I wish I could just open your brains and pour it in all at once but I can’t.

Sail trim is very easy to understand and learn when it is presented in a logical and step by step manner. You can’t start in the middle and hope to get an understanding. In other words, you can’t talk about the sail trim controls for the main and jib unless the sailor knows what they are adjusting in the first place.

Your statement regarding not understanding angle of attack makes my point. You are not alone – no beginner new to sailing understands it. They don’t understand draft depth, draft position, twist either. If you don’t believe me just ask your dock neighbor to explain the difference between draft depth and twist and see the answers you get. Then ask them what setting you would use for each in a particular point of sail and wind condition and what sail trim controls for the main and jib are used to adjust both elements. Once you finish my book you’ll be able to answers those question very easily. In fact the answer will roll off your tongue.

The solution is very simple and you’re halfway home. I think you have THE SAIL TRIM USERS GUIDE. If not then buy it. It costs about as much as a 12 pack of Sam Adams!! Then start reading it, especially the first chapter. Do not go past the first chapter, which deals with draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. You have to have a complete understanding of those terms or sail trim will never make any sense. You can do the same thing with Dennis Conner’s book SAIL LIKE A CHAMPION. Only problem with Conner’s book is you’ll find twist on pages 5. 28, 65, 125 and 230 or something like that and everything else you need to know is also all over the place. I deal with everything you need to know about twist on 2 continuous pages and the same thing goes for all other aspect – each has its own section.

I could tell you what and how the traveler works but I’m not going to because I think it is a mistake to do so for the reasons I’ve outlined. Please follow my advise and read the book. Some folks tell me they don’t have the time to read. Take it to the head with you – after about 5 trips you’ll be well on your way to being a good sail trimmer!!

DO NOT DISCONNECT any of the sail trim controls on the boat until you have an understanding of what you’re disconnecting. Also, if the boat has all the sail trim controls for the main and jib learn to use all of them. It makes your sail trim life easier.

I hope you take this message in the spirit in which it was written.

Don Guillette · Sep 20, 2009

Sail Trim Seminars

I'm making a short sail trim presentation at the Tucson Sailing Club this Wednesday. If it goes well I'll approach some sailing clubs in Phoenix. All I get is 30 minutes but I'll do my best to give as much info as I can.

I conducted sail trim seminars in So Ca between Ventura and San Diego but I don't anymore. The reason is there is no money it when you factor in travel and such plus sailors don't want to pay the fee ( I was charging $100 for the 3 hour sessions) which included my book, chart and a quick reference plus a bunch of handouts. It was more a labor of love than a money maker. A follow up session was "ON THE WATER" which was 4 hours and the group of 6 got to go through every position on the boat for every point of sail. They would get the boat going to top speed and we would then stop the boat and change positions while i messed up all the controls. Additionally, the had to explain EVERY adjustment they made. Also, any boats that we saw on the water required a comment on their sail trim and an explanation from them as to what they would change and how they would do it. The first hour was a Chinese fire drill but on the sail back to the marina at the end of 4 hours I'll stack their sail trim against anyone worldwide.

Marina Sailing, which is the largest charter company in So Ca uses my material for a seminar. The reason they use it they were sick of sailors who were not sure of what they were doing and bringing the boats back in pieces.

With the seminars I conducted in San Diego my wife would come with me because she liked San Diego and would go shopping while I conducted the seminar. I never made a dime in San Diego - she spent it all and then some!!!

jcherubini · Sep 20, 2009

Traveler location is key

One thing that was not mentioned in this thread is the location of the traveler itself. Many newer boats with mid-boom sheeting have the traveler placed so far forward under the boom that the vang almost seems pointless or ay least redundant. Meanwhile the boom is bending like a son-of-a-gun and the tail end of the sail is falling off to leeward... generating twist that cannot be reconciled with either the boom or the vang in such an arrangement.

I have said often in these boards that there are three controls pulling down on the boom-- the sheet (at the after end) the vang (at the middle) and the downhaul (at the forward end). (Some boats have a fixed gooseneck taking care of the downhual control; mine has a sliding gooseneck and downhaul.) All three of these have to work in concert to achieve sail control Don G is talking about. Relocating any one of these to a less advantageous place (such as moving the mainsheet traveler too far forward) begins to negate its effectiveness.

I can fully understand why someone having mid-boom sheeting can wonder why he needs the vang when the sheetline and traveler are mounted so far forward at the boom that maybe less than 20 percent of the boom's length separates them (as I have seen on many new boats. Some have the mainsheet actually less than halfway aft from the mast). What such a boat needs is to have the traveler put farther aft where it belongs. Till then everything is nasty sail shape and excessive leverage and stress on the boom.

I built a bridge deck on my H25 (1974) in order to faciliate a traveler just so I could have this level of sail control. Maybe one day I should offer the plans for how others can do it!

Franklin · Sep 20, 2009

I have one of those "forward" travelers and no, it still doesn't cover a broadreach and not even sure about a reach but the vang does. My boom also, even it being 18' long, does bend either and I have no problem keeping my leach tight when I want to. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I'd really like to know which boat models you've seen the boom bend?