Modified shoal keel

[daysailer]

Sir: Would you have any advise on buying a boat that has had the shoal keel modified. The owner has had the swing keel on a "78 Oday 25 removed and redesigned the shoal keel. It appears to have been professionally done. It looks real good. The botom of the shoal keel has what looks like a round edge all around. The over all condition of the boat is almost excellent. Pictures can be seen at http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/11124#

I feel this may work fine. But I am not an expert. Thank you, Daysailer

 

[Joe11688]

There is no question that this boat will sail with this keel. It was designed with a keel centerboard though, and the way it is set up now would be like sailing it with the centerboard up. The windward performance and pointing ability would be lacking without the centerboard. It's a beautiful boat though, but I think that for the money that they're asking, it should have a working centerboard in the keel slot. Years ago my wife and I anchored out in the Sound near the mouth of Menemsha in Martha's Vineyard during a storm. When we pulled the anchor up in the morning, the wind was still blowing hard and I had to claw my way out. It puzzled me why I wasn't making any headway to get out of there until I realized that I forgot to let my centerboard down. As soon as I let it down, we gained ground very easy and was able to get out of there very quick. Just that extra "Gripe" of four and half feet made the difference in beating out of there. Perhaps a marine surveyor could give you better advice on this boat. Good luck!
Joe

 

[LordNelson]

interesting conversion. it looks like it may be larger than the orginal keel. i would think proformance would depend on amount of surface area in the keel, the shape, and amount of ballast. was this keel conversion designed by a marine architect? maybe you could talk to them or maybe get an opinion from one. i would also want to sail it to see how it handles.

i agree with joe, my oday doesn't want to come about without the keel board down and also slips a ton to windward while beating so i would really want to check it out before taking a chance on it.

 

[daysailer]

Thanks for all your help. I asked the seller about explaning the design of his keel and this is what he answered me:

don't really appreciate getting bullshit e-mails like the one from 'Joe' below - who the hell is he, anyway??? And what qualifies him to make judgments on a boat he has never seen or been on?? What pile of crap did you feed him anyway??? My wife and I have sailed this boat all over Casco Bay, with no windward problems whatsoever!! I am a skilled engineer (chemical, magma cum laude), I have several years of naval architecture courses in my possession as well, and am a very skilled cabinetmaker. I AM THE DESIGNER. I AM THE ONE WHO MADE THE MODIFICATIONS. I TOOK AN OLD BOAT AND MODIFIED IT BY CHOICE, NOT BY CHANCE!!

The boat is for sale AS IS at the requested price. Don't waste any more of my time unless you plan to buy it. If your greatest attraction in boats is the wood stove, I suggest you stay on shore. At this price, you are also buying an old boat, not an America's Cup defender!!!! If this one is not acceptable, get one of the junk buckets you have been looking at and do the work yourself - maybe you will have an appreciation for the effort it takes!


I wrote back to him:


RED FLAG!

Your anger shows me that these sailors that have suggested that your boat does not sail well are probably correct. I really do not know.

These were sailors on a forum who ask and answer questions. Sailors that I do not personally know and have no interest either way in your boat.

To see the pile of crap that I feed them go to http://forums.oday.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=654447#post654447 It is exactly what you fed me. So please do not feed any other prospective buyer any more or this so called crap.

Do you think it was a fun 3 hour drive to go look at your boat?

It was no joke to me.

I was serious. So serious that I asked questions about your modification. So insincere are you sir that you could not answer any of my questions pertaining to the modifications. So why did you not answer my questions? You could have simply done so. If you are a skilled engineer (chemical, magma cum laude), and or a skilled naval architect, Than I would prusume that you would be proud of your modification and shared with me your ideas behind your design and how you came about in doing so. Im sure that others would like to know as well.

Good luck in selling your boat. But be honest in doing it. Ill try to pass the word along about your boat and your attitude. Anger will get you no where

Thank you for your time. Your wife was very pleasant.

Post Script....did you by chance loose any money in the stock market? What goes around comes around.



Thank you A
again as I could of bought a bathtub. If any one wants to know this guys name just ask. He lives in Maine.

Grateful Day sailer

 

[Joe11688]

I've heard that there is a wing keel that you can be attached to the keel slots of these boats if one chooses to opt for it in favor of the centerboard that came with the boat, but to go with a design that was very prevalent to what the O'Day 22 stubby keel boats had back in the early 1970s makes no sense to me. The O'Day sailboat designers improved the windward ability of the O'Day 22 when they started building them with keel centerboards. Then they made the big change when they came out with the O'Day 222. My guess is that something may have happened to the centerboard and the owner didn't want to spring for a new one. If the guy is hesitant and too irritated to answer your questions regarding this issue, his behavior certainly presents a red flag. As I said before, It's a beautiful boat but for the kind of money that he's asking, I would want a working centerboard in it. Take your time in choosing a boat and continue to ask questions. Good Luck!
Joe

 

[Sunbird22358]

If he says that the boat still points well, maybe it does. The 25 does have more keel than the 222 and the 20, still needs the CB to sail best, but several 25 owners have mentioned that their boats will sail acceptably without the CB. The fact that the added "bulb" on the bottom of the keel is wider than the keel may form a sort-of "end-plate" that would act similar to a wing-keel or a Scheel-Keel (used on Tartan Sailboats for a while). I suspect this redesign will give up a small amount of windward pointing..... but maybe not really enough to matter to the typical cruising sailer.

For example; Cape Cod Shipbuilding builds a 17' Cat Boat, and offers the boat as either a CB model or as a "Keel" model, the keel model has a lead shoe on the bottom of the hull and draws about 3" more than the CB model. The Keel model is much more popular despite that fact that it doesn't point quite as well as the CB.........

He has been trying to sell this boat for at least a couple of years, I remember seeing her listed on eBay before. I think his rude attitude is the BIG problem, Joe and "Lord Nelsen" made legitimate comments (as asked for by daysailer) based on their experience with their boats....... the seller was WAY off-base with his anger. His declaration of being a "skilled engineer" (chemical cum laude) would seem to have very little to do with sailboat design, I'm an out-of-work mechanical engineer (with some Westlawn School of Yacht Design training) and might trust his design.... but not if he replied to any questions that I might have in this way. I'd want to take the boat for a test sail before buying, and would be curious to see the boat sailed head-to-head against a stock K/CB 25? It may very well turn out that she would lose very little pointing ability...... or maybe not enough to really worry about! I bet she is stiffer than a stock boat.... and that would result in the keel staying more vertical and thus more effective in preventing leeway (not sure if it would truly make up for the lack of the CB's area though!).

 

[Sunbird22358]

Just a quick comment to go with what I said above, if I had modified my boat and was now trying to sell her, and a potential buyer "questioned" my mods..... I would like to think that I'd be much more patient about explaining how the modified boat sails that this guy was. With his alleged knowledge, I would think that he could have easily explained the science behind his modifications, to prove that it works. The fact that he so rudely defends his mods casts a bit of doubt on how well it worked out?

 

[emergpa1]

Just a quick comment to go with what I said above, if I had modified my boat and was now trying to sell her, and a potential buyer "questioned" my mods..... I would like to think that I'd be much more patient about explaining how the modified boat sails that this guy was. With his alleged knowledge, I would think that he could have easily explained the science behind his modifications, to prove that it works. The fact that he so rudely defends his mods casts a bit of doubt on how well it worked out?

Agree, except alot of really smart geeks are socially challenged. I work with a few really intelligent docs that can't get along with the world. But if I were to be injured, they are who I would want taking care of me. So check out the keel with someone else who might know. If this guy is a jerk with everyone, then you may get a deal on a great boat.
Just my wortheless opinion (JMWO)
Keith