raritan fresh or seawater?

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delaney1142

Peggy,
I am redoing the head on a new to me 40 ft. sailboat. The Jabsco electric is loud and pumps too much water for the 25 gal holding tank. Plus i cannot pump the bowl dry. Thinking of changing out to the elegance. I have 100 gal water tanks, plan on coastal and cruises to Carribean. Would you recommend the feature whereby you can switch from fresh to seawater? I want to try and keep things simple enough that I can repair myself.
 
Dec 19, 2006
5,832
Hunter 36 Punta Gorda
PHII

I just added a PHII to my H-36 and I can use seawater for when away from fresh water refills and can use the sink to flush out with fresh water and also added a fresh water sprayer to make flushing with fresh water when in plenty of supply.
Its so easy to use the PHII and being able to use either fresh or sea water a plus,no drain on the batteries or fresh water supply when need to conserve away from the dock hook ups.
I am sure Peggy will advise you much better.
Nick
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,952
- - LIttle Rock
Elegance is an excellent choice for a 40' boat...

And with only 100 gallons of fresh water storage, you don't have any to spare for toilet flushing if you want to stay out longer than a weekend, so it needs to be a sea water model. I would NOT add the "Sea Fresh" option that allows you to switch between sea water and fresh because it makes the toilet a nightmare to trouble shoot if anything goes wrong anywhere in the system.

There's another issue: a 25 gallon holding tank is WAY too small for more than weekend use by 2 people with ANY toilet. You haven't registered and don't say where you are, but unless you're in New England or the FL Keys, there's a great solution to that problem: an ElectroScan (CG certified Type I MSD that treats each flush and sends it overboard legally and with -0- negative environmental impact. The discharge from is so clean and unnoticeable that you can even use it in a slip or an anchorage. You can read all about it here: http://www.raritaneng.com/products/waste_treatment/electroscan.htm You'd have to keep the tank for use in any no discharge waters or marinas.
 
V

Vic Willman

Marine Elegance

I had a man call me a week or so ago, who was disappointed with his new Marine Elegance, because he couldn't get rinse water all around the bowl when he flushed it - while on a hard heel...

And yes, he was serious!

So if you want rinse water to flow all around the bowl when you flush it - and are on a hard heel - you may find yourself disappointed. We're good, but we're not magicians!
 
Sep 4, 2009
18
Oyster 55 (hull 19, built 1990) Redondo Beach
I am seriously considering one of the Marine Elegance toilets for the forward head of the Oyster 55 (1990) which I recently purchased. It looks like it will fit and it appears that people are happy with them, it just won't fit in the aft head but I moved my 10 year old Groko Model K back there from the previous boat after a complete rebuild. (I don't think that the issue of significant heel resulting in not getting water all the way around the bowl will be an issue for me!)
So, the question, I can easily make a sloped piece of formica covered plywood to go behind the head and get a nice finished appearance or leave it more open and go straight down. Any thoughts on how hard it is to get the toilet off it's base for service. I can get up under the toilet from under the floor (at least with a mirror and my hand for inspection).
I will be direct plumbing this tank to a holding tank about 6 feet away, the intake for the holding tank will be in the middle top of the tank and has a 2' rise from the base of the toilet. The top of the tank should never be awash with sewage unless it is a) very full and b) in very rough conditions.
So, the big question, do I go and put a vented loop in the output line from the toilet to the holding tank? I can easily do it, however, the output of the vented loop will still have to drop below the top of the tank to get into the locker which will result in waste standing in the line. I am planning on using the 1" line option to aid in the freshwater flush cycle clearing the line.
So, to vented loop or not to vented loop this is the question.
The output of the holding tank will have two dip tubes (all fittings on the top of the tank) for two independent electric waste pumps and then an extra dip tube for pumpout. The pumps will have vented loops on the output.
Thanks!
David
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,952
- - LIttle Rock
If you have the fresh water to spare, go with the fresh water version of the Elegance AND the optional Smart Flush panel. Toilets designed to use pressurized flush water are much quieter than sea water toilets and also eliminate those pesky odors caused by sea water left sitting in the system.

I have no idea what you mean by, "I am planning on using the 1" line option to aid in the freshwater flush cycle clearing the line." 'cuz a 1" discharge line doesn't "rinse out" any better than the standard 1.5" line.

Why would you need TWO independent electric tank discharge pumps, separately plumbed? If you're concerned that you won't be able to dump the tank at sea if one pump fails, make sure to do plenty of preventive maintenance, and carry a spare pump instead of over complicating the plumbing.

Btw...the Raritan SeaEra (again, pressurized flush water version) should fit the space in your aft head very nicely...and speaking of that head...surely you're not gonna connect a toilet at the aft end of a 55' boat to a tank that's only about 6' away from the forward toilet? That's at least 30'! There isn't a toilet made that will fit in your aft head that can push bowl contents even half that far!
 
Sep 4, 2009
18
Oyster 55 (hull 19, built 1990) Redondo Beach
If you have the fresh water to spare, go with the fresh water version of the Elegance AND the optional Smart Flush panel. Toilets designed to use pressurized flush water are much quieter than sea water toilets and also eliminate those pesky odors caused by sea water left sitting in the system.
Yup, that is exactly the plan. I have run my Groko Model K for years by connecting the intake to the sink drain in the CAL Cruising 35 (see www.botanybay.org) and after 19 years of living aboard and 10 (hummm, I think it's closer to 15 now that I think about it) it has had few if any problems.

I have no idea what you mean by, "I am planning on using the 1" line option to aid in the freshwater flush cycle clearing the line." 'cuz a 1" discharge line doesn't "rinse out" any better than the standard 1.5" line.
Well, if you push 1 gallon (or half a gallon) through a 1" line you have pushed more "feet" of water through the hose leaving less of the original waste in the line. Let's see, 0.5^2= 0.25*Pi = 0.785 sq inches of cross section, while for the 1.5 inch line it is 0.75^2 * Pi = 1.76 square inches of cross section. Thus for the same amount of clean water coming in after the waste you would get a little over twice as much total flow. What I am assuming is that there is some mixing in the line and that the higher flow rate will result in the clean water after the waste clearing the line more completely.

Why would you need TWO independent electric tank discharge pumps, separately plumbed? If you're concerned that you won't be able to dump the tank at sea if one pump fails, make sure to do plenty of preventive maintenance, and carry a spare pump instead of over complicating the plumbing.
And that would be the trade off, there are some who argue strongly against plumbing the toilet directly to the tank without a direct overboard discharge option. After sailing from Los Angeles to Hawaii, then Kwajalein Atoll, Midway Island, and back to Los Angeles I have never wished I had done differently. However, boat maintenance in the middle of the ocean is a bit of a pain and so the thought of having a pump pre-mounted and possibly pre-plumbed (as a completely independent system) is somewhat appealing. For those who can just stop in a nice cove and work on the boat I would completely agree with you, it is just a thought of not having to work on it at sea. On the other hand, since both heads go to independent holding tanks with independent pump out systems it is probably not a big deal to wait for the weather to go dead calm and then turn your head upside down to work on it.

Btw...the Raritan SeaEra (again, pressurized flush water version) should fit the space in your aft head very nicely...and speaking of that head...surely you're not gonna connect a toilet at the aft end of a 55' boat to a tank that's only about 6' away from the forward toilet? That's at least 30'! There isn't a toilet made that will fit in your aft head that can push bowl contents even half that far!
Not sure why you would think I would be pushing that far, both heads are completely independent. I do like having one head which is independent of the electrical system, the reason is twofold, 1) if I am working on the electrical system (either at anchor or at sea) I tend to shut everything down and pull the master fuse which removes all power to the boat, it is a bit nicer for the guests to not have to hang it over the side or the like in that case. 2) Complete failure of the 24V electrical system either due to salt water intrusion into the battery bank (significant flooding at sea which is then recovered but the batteries are shot) or a lightning strike. While I agree that at that point in time you have other significant issues, when you are 1000 nmi from anywhere and plan to sail home without power you still have options.

That said, the real question remains, is the extra verticle rise for the vented loop when going from the head into the holding tank the right choice or direct plumbing to the middle of the top of the holding tank. I will be having a custom tank made so all of the fittings will be "welded" into the top of the tank and I can put them anywhere I want them.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

David
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,952
- - LIttle Rock
Welll...way up yonder in the thread you said...

"So, the big question, do I go and put a vented loop in the output line from the toilet to the holding tank? I can easily do it, however, the output of the vented loop will still have to drop below the top of the tank to get into the locker which will result in waste standing in the line..."

I think that negates any advantage the loop would provide...'cuz the whole point of the loop is to prevent standing waste in the line. ANY toilet can lift bowl contents up to about 4', so the user only has to flush long enough to get it over the top of the loop, then gravity does the rest. But in your proposed installation, gravity is only gonna put it at the bottom of what amounts to a trap in the intake line...and traps anywhere in marine sanitation plumbing are a bad idea...and an even worse idea in the head discharge line. No matter which toilet you go with, you're gonna have to fill up your tank witha lot of rinse water to keep that trap rinsed out. I guess that's the long way of saying I wouldn't bother with the loop.

Before you spend the extra money to have a custom tank made, have you checked the Ronco Plastics catalog? http://www.ronco-plastics.net (No reltation to the VegoMatic Ronco, btw) They make TOP quality thickwalled rotomolded water and waste tanks for a very reasonable pice and have more than 400 shapes and sizes, over 100 of which are non-rectangular...and they install fittings in the sizes and locations specified by the customer when they make the tank. The online chandlery here is now a dealer and has discounts Ronco's already great prices even more. Find the drawing for the tank you need in the Ronco catalog...print it and indicate fittings sizes and locations on it...then call Dave to order it. In fact, you might want to see what else the sbo.com chandlery has...starting with plumbing: http://shop.sailboatowners.com/division.htm?div=10
 
Sep 4, 2009
18
Oyster 55 (hull 19, built 1990) Redondo Beach
Ronco tanks are the best!!!

"So, the big question, do I go and put a vented loop in the output line from the toilet to the holding tank? I can easily do it, however, the output of the vented loop will still have to drop below the top of the tank to get into the locker which will result in waste standing in the line..."

I think that negates any advantage the loop would provide...'cuz the whole point of the loop is to prevent standing waste in the line. ANY toilet can lift bowl contents up to about 4', so the user only has to flush long enough to get it over the top of the loop, then gravity does the rest. But in your proposed installation, gravity is only gonna put it at the bottom of what amounts to a trap in the intake line...and traps anywhere in marine sanitation plumbing are a bad idea...and an even worse idea in the head discharge line. No matter which toilet you go with, you're gonna have to fill up your tank witha lot of rinse water to keep that trap rinsed out. I guess that's the long way of saying I wouldn't bother with the loop.
That's exactly what I have been thinking. I ran the Groko Model K directly to the top of the center of the tank for years and never had a problem, I did install a large ball valve right after the joker valve to make changing it quick and easy.

It is also the reason for considering using 1" line out of the Marine Elegance, just to try and flush the "trap" in the line a little better. Is there any downside to the smaller line downstream of a macerating toilet? Never had one before and so don't know if there is a strong reason to go with 1.5" tubing from the head to the holding tank.


Before you spend the extra money to have a custom tank made, have you checked the Ronco Plastics catalog? http://www.ronco-plastics.net (No reltation to the VegoMatic Ronco, btw) They make TOP quality thickwalled rotomolded water and waste tanks for a very reasonable pice and have more than 400 shapes and sizes, over 100 of which are non-rectangular...and they install fittings in the sizes and locations specified by the customer when they make the tank. The online chandlery here is now a dealer and has discounts Ronco's already great prices even more. Find the drawing for the tank you need in the Ronco catalog...print it and indicate fittings sizes and locations on it...then call Dave to order it. In fact, you might want to see what else the sbo.com chandlery has...starting with plumbing: http://shop.sailboatowners.com/division.htm?div=10
Exactly my plan, they are just across town from me and so I have them make one of the "standard" tanks, last time they offered to double the wall thickness for a modest fee.... They provided it to me "blank" with no holes in it at all, I put it into place, did all of my plumbing connections except for the tank and then marked the top of the tank where I wanted the fittings, clean outs etc. I took it back to them and they put in the fittings on the spot. The nice thing about having custom locations is that none of the hoses had any stress on them and it made for a wonderful installation.

Can't imagine going with anyone else for a tank.

David
 
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