I'm looking into buying a new sailboat

Franklin · Jul 30, 2009

I know boats are made to handle being on the hard and sitting on their keels, but I don't think I'd be too much of a hurry to buy a boat anywhere near new price that had been sitting on the hard for two years. When the boat is floating, the keel in modern boats is pulling down about 1/3 the boat's weight. When the boat is on the hard, 2/3 of the weight is being pushed down on the keel. Big difference. I can see that things start to sit differently inside the boat and when you sail it, you'll get all kinds of creeking noises.

I wouldn't put a lot of money into a boat sitting for so long, epecially one that never floated for a long time first.

Tim R. · Jul 30, 2009

Franklin said:
I know boats are made to handle being on the hard and sitting on their keels, but I don't think I'd be too much of a hurry to buy a boat anywhere near new price that had been sitting on the hard for two years. When the boat is floating, the keel in modern boats is pulling down about 1/3 the boat's weight. When the boat is on the hard, 2/3 of the weight is being pushed down on the keel. Big difference. I can see that things start to sit differently inside the boat and when you sail it, you'll get all kinds of creeking noises.

I wouldn't put a lot of money into a boat sitting for so long, epecially one that never floated for a long time first.

If the boat is that flexible, I agree, do not buy it.

Virtually all boats change shape a little when put in the water. Long term hard storage should not get any worse over time for a well built boat.

NC-C320 · Jul 31, 2009

New vs New/Older vs. Used/Older

Each deal is different..you have to check out your options

When you buy a boat, new, new but previous model, like new used, in each situation, you need to bargain for a reduction in price to get best deal...it's just negotiation. Remember, the seller is trying to get top dollar, so bargain first.

A 2 yr. old, never used boat could be a good deal if the price has been reduced enough, and at very least, you should save the year to year inflation in price. If the boat is the model that you really want, equipped like you want, then if the price is right go for it. If it's not quite what you had in mind, walk away.

People frequently talk about taking a big depreciation in the first year or two of owning a sailboat. This happens with cars, but I don't think it does with sailboats. I've followed closely the resale market on 4 sailboats that I have owned over the years...not one of these took a big hit in value, based on BUC, NADA, and advertised prices, in the first few years. Check it out before you decide not to buy a new current model boat.

When I bought my Catalina 320, I was looking at a used one that was on the market. The Catalina dealer told me that he could sell me a new boat for just a couple of thousand more. I went with the new boat and got exactly those items on it that I wanted.

Bob V · Jul 31, 2009

I sold a 2-year old boat

My first new boat was a C350 which I cruised (hard) for 2 years and then decided it was not the boat for us. I expected to take a beating on the depreciation but was amazed at the deal our broker was able to put together. He gave us top dollar without seeing the boat because he was aware of the kind of care she had received while we owned her. He was not aware of the fact that there were already 400 hours on the engine. That took him back a bit but the price did not go down.

It helped that we had meticulous records of all maintenance and manuals were created for all of the systems that I had installed. It also probably also helped that we were ordering a new C42 from him.

Bottom line - if you like the boat, bargain hard and buy it. By the time you sell it the 2 years should not make a difference.

BobM · Jul 31, 2009

One thing that the dealer readily threw in for my friend was that he could buy any accessories at their cost.

John · Jul 31, 2009

What to do?

Ctskip said:
Is it me or what? Just as I get about to close the deal, another boat shows up and it looks pretty good for all the extras it has. Although the dealer is adding something every time I talk to him. Kind of interesting to watch this whole process happen. I just happen to come across a four year old boat (same maker) with twice the goodies and almost half the price. Now what to do. I think I'll wait just a tad longer and never stop looking. And I swore that I would never buy what I have always considered to be cookie cutter boats. I use to enjoy looking down the row of sterns and while most were all similar, mine was the stand out in the line. A certain degree of pride there. But now I'm ready to sail and put the brush and tool kit away. Oh what to do, what to do. Thanks guys for all the advice and feelings. I really appreciate it all. Thanks.

Keep it up,
Ctskip

Hey, CT: You know the story of the donkey who starved to death standing between two stacks of hay, trying to decide which one to eat off of?

by the way, we have one of those cookie cutter boats (C 36), but all I know is this: Every time I'm in or on it I feel good. The female part of a couple that owns a racer/cruiser - probably a far superior sailing boat to ours - was on our boat a while back. You should have heard her carry on to her husband about, "why can't we have a cabin that looks like this?"

I understand your feelings about cookie cutters, and I don't take it amiss, but there's a reason they are cookie cutters - we (and many others like us) couldn't afford anything like this that wasn't. So many of them were sold because they meet a common need. So my view is, don't let the fact that there's alot of other boats like it turn you off if you, personally, like the boat.

NC-C320 · Jul 31, 2009

Cookie Cutter Boats?

I'm not sure what kind of boat you are considering, but all the advice that you got on this thread applies to any type of boat...a one off custom, or one where there are thousands of the same boat. The cookie cutter comment seems somewhat aimed at those of us who had Catalinas and who tried to be helpful to you, and to me, is a bit offensive. I would guess that any high volume boat (Hunter, Beneteau, and others would fit this category also). What I find strange about your comment is that a Allmand 31 is a production boat (older that it may be) and the manufacturer was trying to sell just as many as he could...he didn't because the boat, while it may be a good one (I don't know), wasn't as popular as the Catalinas, Hunters, Beneteus. So is it not a cookie cutter boat also?

John · Jul 31, 2009

As the owner of a cookie cutter boat, I don't take any offense at the term, nor did I think any was intended. As we all agree, they are "cookie cutters" for a reason. I know that I, for one, would never be able to afford a boat with these features and this size and this relatively new (1998) if it weren't a cookie cutter. It does what my wife and I want it to do at a price we were able to afford.

Others prefer to have a boat that is more distinctive. That's their privilige and their values. I don't put that down any more than I feel CT was putting me down with his use of the term. It's just what we prefer to spend out money on.

caguy · Jul 31, 2009

The PO of my Mac 25 name the boat ''Carbon Copy'', how generic is that, it even has a blue stripe.

Bad Obsession · Aug 1, 2009

There is a benefit to having a cookie cutter boat.

My boat is a Catalina 30. Tons of them were made. When I bought the boat I knew its reputation and what it was capible of. I didn't have to go out there and say "Well, mathamatically the boat should be sound." The reason is that thousands of other Catalina 30s have sailed all over the place and they are still afloat! I know that it is a descently built boat and it is prefect for what I want it to do.

I would never buy a new boat. You loose your ass on it if you look on it as a short term investment. As a long term investment you still loose money. If I had $140,000 to spend on a boat right now I could either buy a new and much smaller Catalina, or I could go out and probably pick up a mid 90's Catalina 42 (probably an early 2000 Catalina 42). There are enough Catalina 42's out there to know that it is a descent sailing boat with a large interior. I have no intentions of sailing to Europe or doing a circumnavigation, so why do I need the Swan or the Hinkley?

NC-C320 · Aug 1, 2009

Actually, as I reflect on it, except for one-off boats, nearly all are cookie cutter boats, even the Hinkley and Swan. Most boats are made from specially built reusable molds (cookie cutters) so that each one of a model series is almost identical to all others, with the only difference being in bolt-on equipment and sometimes an option of interiors. It's just that, for a variety of reasons, the volume sold of some cookies is much greater for one type vs. another. As to which you choose, a high volume boat or one with limited, more modest production is simply a matter of personal choice, which is usually governed by preference for a given design, intended use, and amount one can or is willing to spend. I've had both the limited production boat (a modest size/price range) and the high volume production boats. In my limited experience, the high volume boat was a better thought out and executed design, with manufacturer having applied useful refinements over time to the design in the first 693 boats, before I bought mine. These refinements continue with approximately 1200 of this design now having been sold. A limited production builder doesn't get as great an opportunity for feedback from the market so as to incorporate refinements just from the limited number of his boats out there. On the other hand, his design will certainly be one that you don't see everyday. And buying new or used is a matter of choice. I personally think new is the better choice, but I'm glad others think used is better since that assures me that when I go to sell, the resale price will be closer to my purchase price. On new, unless you load it up excessively with equipment or buy a model that the general public doesn't like, you won't take a beating on resale price even if you keep the boat for just a few years...thanks in large part to those people who prefer the resale boats.

Just one person's thoughts..

Stu Jackson · Aug 1, 2009

Cookie Cutters (not the rig!)

John wrote: "As the owner of a cookie cutter boat, I don't take any offense at the term, nor did I think any was intended. As we all agree, they are "cookie cutters" for a reason."

There are a number of reasons that were offered by John and others, and I'd like to add a few more:

-- ease of service both from finding parts and for ACCESS - I don't know how many times I've gone on boat and asked "where's the dipstick?" only to find it in a hard to reach place; I can service everything on my boat

-- proven LAYOUTS - the mid-range Catalinas come to mind because I'm familiar with them: in reviewing and re-reading the " Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts" for another topic, I note that many of the layouts of the mid-range Catalinas meet a lot of those criteria (I'm not that familiar with the Bs but in many cases their layouts are like the Cs only half of it is flipped which makes the same space seems smaller)

-- pretty good gear and sizing - Garhauer makes most of the Cs gear, it is robust and sized just right or bigger; the winches are well sized and placed.

-- good websites to avoid making the same mistake others have, and to elarn from - sure, they're all boats, and most issues aren't as boat specific as folks would believe, it's an engine, rigging and a hull with furniture inside! But many of our folks, and many of John's, too I'll bet, partially decidied to buy their boats because of the perceived "backup" of the information on our websites: how'd I know?: they write and tell me...

-- They're NOT all the same even when lined up next to each other; I am constantly amazed at the different, and great, things folks do with their boats; I spend lots of time learning from them as we go, and we share our ideas. After a while, you learn to look at "the same" boat and realize it is very, very different.

Now, CT, I'm talking about my knowledge of the C22s, C25s and C34s. I had an '81, '81 and have an '86. I also am very familiar with the newer C34s in my role. I also have sailed with John on his boat, and he's right about his cabin!

But you've been around the block long enough to know you bet what you pay for if you play it right.

From your earlier post, is it the same dealer who's showing you these other boats? If so, it's beginning to smell a bit fishy...

BobM · Aug 1, 2009

My thoughts on Catalina's

I too was one of those who didn't want a Catalina 30 because they are abundant. I had been aboard a few and you can't fault them for space or engine access, two things that are important to me. Sailing performance is also something few can find fault with. The one thing that removed the C30 from my list was that we decided that a tee-shaped cockpit was critical to us. Unfortunately, Catalina was a relatively late adopter of the tee cockpit and C30's with that were out of our price range. Catalina is certainly doing something right. They didn't go bankrupt in the 80's like most, and although I really like the designs Hunter has come up with, there seem to be more quality issues with them then with comparable Catalina's.

zeehag · Aug 1, 2009

cookie cutters/plastic punchouts are good first boats and are also good for those enjyiong the molded plastic, or whatever is used--easy to care for and replace interior----they sail, they are liveaboards, they also are made to cruise----there is a goood side to this---i , personally, like more wood on my boats----and a bit more heft to the hull----but there is a place--even in hearts--for these ......there is even a way to make one not look just exactly like another---but they are definitely light water--and up to moderate air--boats~~~~~~~_/)~~~~~~

NC-C320 · Aug 1, 2009

In Boom Furling

Roller boom furling where the sail is rolled up on the exterior of the boom is an old concept that has been largely abandoned...it would be a problem with the mid boom travelers that are common today. Roller furling internal to the boom, which of necessity, the boom has to be large to accommodate the sail is a relatively new concept, and a very expensive option from the numbers that I have seen. In the boating magazines, in the custom built "flagship" huge yachts, these new in boom furlers are frequently used. When in-mast furling was adopted, the boats that previously had full length sail battens to help shape the sail and hold out the roach presented a problem. The choice became traditional full batten sails for improved performance, or in mast furling with roach (sail area) reduced and full length battens to help shape the sail eliminated in exchange for ease of furling. The first (and a current) approach to correcting this issue was the large boom, in boom furling, which was an expensive option. Later, the sail makers/rig builders/boat builders developed the vertical batten concept so the roach area could be re-added. However these vertical battens would seem (but no first hand experience) not to help sail shape the same as full length horizontal battens. The in-boom option allows you to keep the roach area and full length horizontal battens. We had a Catalina 34 in our marina that was equipped with the in boom furling, and as far as I know, the owner was happy with it.

On my own boat, I have the traditional sail arrangment...full length horizontal battens, Dutchman furling where sail is dropped down on the boom and then secured with sail ties. The one option that the dealer really pushed me to buy was in-mast furling. In retrospect, for those that take lots of short day sails as I do, this would have been a good option, and if I were to do it over, I probably would go with in mast furling ....not meaning anything against in-boom furling, but it is an expensive option which would have knocked it out of my budget.

I'm looking into buying a new sailboat

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