CAM Cleats fot head sail control

Joe11688 · Jul 21, 2009

titoana said:
Guys:
Any help with this will be greatly appreciated. I bought an O'Day 25 last summer and just sailed her. This year, I've dedicated the season so far to fix her (transom reinforecement, paint, etc). Now, I'd like to change the cleat system to trim/control the head sail. The boat currently has the regular dock/deck cleats, but like you guys know, it is not safe to used this on windy/puffy conditions because you won't be easy to release the line quickly if needed. I've thought about getting CAM cleats for this. These will allow me to release the head sail line very easily if needed. The only thing is that I am not sure what system to use (with/without swivel, etc) and where to place them. Can any of you give me advice on this matter?

Thanks,
David

David,
I wouldn't even use cam cleats. I'd use open clam cleats behind the winches. In fact, years ago when my boat was being built at the Fall River Ma. O'Day factory, I asked the dealer to arranged to have my winches and tracks left off the cabin so that I could install them on the combings, and that's when I decided to install the clam cleats in back of the winches. After all these years, if I had to do it over again, I'd do it the very same way. If you single hand, they're so quick and easy and they keep on working. In some of the pictures, you'll notice a small cheek block in back of the clam cleats. They were part of a sheet to tiller self steering arrangement that I installed on my boat that never really worked all that well. I removed the two cheek blocks last year. When I think of some of the useless hardware that I wished that I hadn't installed on my boat, these cheek blocks were at the top of the short list. Years later, I bought and Autohelm autopilot, and I'm still using one.
Joe

LordNelson · Jul 21, 2009

my oday has "dock" cleats. a previous owner added a simple Jam cleat. the line goes off the winch and then i take a wrap around the "dock" cleat. rather than tie the line on the "dock" cleat i secure the end in the simple jam cleat. it only takes a quick tug get the end loose and then unwrap it off the cleat.

in gusty conditions i usually use a smaller head sail to begin with and if a gust hits i am more concerned with letting out the main sail quickly than worrying about the jib.

Joe11688 · Jul 21, 2009

LordNelson said:
my oday has "dock" cleats. a previous owner added a simple Jam cleat. the line goes off the winch and then i take a wrap around the "dock" cleat. rather than tie the line on the "dock" cleat i secure the end in the simple jam cleat. it only takes a quick tug get the end loose and then unwrap it off the cleat.

in gusty conditions i usually use a smaller head sail to begin with and if a gust hits i am more concerned with letting out the main sail quickly than worrying about the jib.

I suppose that it's all in what you get used to. Cam cleats are great on my main sheet and boom Vang, but I find myself heading up in puffs rather than letting my main sheet off. That way, if the puff lasts a little longer than predicted, I can take advantage of the lift that I can get from it, without losing speed.

Kelly · Jul 22, 2009

My ODay 22 has the winches on the coaming with the standard "dock" (or horn) cleats located slightly aft. I know what you mean about not desiring to reach over to the low leeward side of the cockpit to adjust the jib sheet. That is, it's nice to stay on the high windward side. I simply have two turns on the winch and tail the sheet across the cockpit to the opposite cleat next to where I'm sitting on the windward side. The only downside of this is having the sheet going across the cockpit, but if you have the room and don't have to move around at the time it's not a bad way to accomplish what you describe. I do like the idea though of using something other than a horn cleat for securing the jib sheet.
Brian

OdayDave · Jul 22, 2009

David -

While I do have cam cleats on the coaming of my 222, and I do use them, the location of the winches prevents me from using the cam cleats in conjunction with the winches. I wish Joe had been designing the location of these when my boat was built since they are a much better location than the default design on the cabin-top. So I typically don't even use the winches. Nonetheless, you may want to consider an alternative which is the rubber self-tailing winch add-ons (see link below). I have a friend who uses them on his Precision 23 and they work great. My winches are too small and so they didn't have a size that would fit them, the last time I looked. I may recheck this since it does look like they have smaller sizes now. Anyhow, these things release quickly if needed, but they hold the jib sheets securely. And they are pretty inexpensive.

Good luck,

Dave
O'Day 222

(http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...L=true&storeNum=2&subdeptNum=374&classNum=383)

LordNelson · Jul 22, 2009

joe: my Jam cleats are similar to what you are calling a clam cleat. the only reason i use the dock or horn cleat is because the sheet is getting worn and sometimes pulls out of the Jam or clam cleat if i don't wrap it around the horn cleat. someday i'll pry open my wallet and buy a new jib sheet.

Joe11688 · Jul 23, 2009

LordNelson said:
joe: my Jam cleats are similar to what you are calling a clam cleat. the only reason i use the dock or horn cleat is because the sheet is getting worn and sometimes pulls out of the Jam or clam cleat if i don't wrap it around the horn cleat. someday i'll pry open my wallet and buy a new jib sheet.

My friend Wayne has jam cleats behind the winches on his Seaward 22 that came stock with the boat, and he was able to leave them in place and mount clam cleats behind his winches. I asked just yesterday how he liked them while our boats were tied up to the club dock, and he said that he loves them. I think that I had got the idea of mounting clam cleats behind the winches from a magazine called "Small Boat Journal" back in the early 1980's when they were in publication.
Joe

Joe11688 · Jul 23, 2009

titoana said:
Joe:

Thanks for the info and sharing the pictures. Clam cleats would work and I definitely like their price (vs. Cam cleats anyway). I guess I was envisioning a system where if I ever had to trim the head sail (for what ever reason) I could do it from the opposite side of the cockpit. For example, if I am on a port tack, I would like to be able to trim the sheet without having to jump to the starboard side to uncleat the sheet, trim, cleat it and jump to the port side again. That's why I thought about a swivel cam cleat.
Thanks again for the info.
David

David,
I can understand your concern about reaching down to the low side to adjust the sheet while on a Port tack, but I assure you that it's not as hairy as you think, once you've done it a few times and get used to it. I just reach out and lift it off the cleat and if the wind is a little to strong to tail it by hand, I may head up a little to get it where I want it. I never use a winch handle. I'll probably never lose my winch handle because it sits inside my cabin behind the seat bolster.
Joe

Joe11688 · Jul 23, 2009

LordNelson said:
joe: my Jam cleats are similar to what you are calling a clam cleat. the only reason i use the dock or horn cleat is because the sheet is getting worn and sometimes pulls out of the Jam or clam cleat if i don't wrap it around the horn cleat. someday i'll pry open my wallet and buy a new jib sheet.

I replaced my Jib sheets just this past spring, by cutting my old Main and Jib halyard to size. I bought two new 5/16" halyards. The halyards that I had on there before were 1/2" and they were almost like new. My old Jib sheets looked old but were not frayed. They were the original sheets that came with my boat. I'll use them for extra lines because I really can't see any point in throwing them out. Rudy has a better price for Sta-Set X than "Worst Marine."

Elepant_man · Jul 23, 2009

On my oday i have jam cleats just aft of my winches. these arent modern jams but what most people would refer to as docking cleats. the deference is one horn on the cleat has a tight slot to jam the line rather than locking it under a turn. The plus side of this simple setup is one can run the jib sheet around the leeward winch and up to the windward cleat while singlehanding.

Joe11688 · Jul 24, 2009

Elepant_man said:
On my oday i have jam cleats just aft of my winches. these arent modern jams but what most people would refer to as docking cleats. the deference is one horn on the cleat has a tight slot to jam the line rather than locking it under a turn. The plus side of this simple setup is one can run the jib sheet around the leeward winch and up to the windward cleat while singlehanding.

That's interesting. I've never heard of anyone doing that. I guess it's OK if it works for you.

Steve Morris · Jul 24, 2009

I added cam cleats to my 1978 O'Day 25 to control the head sail sheets. They work very well. Since this photo was taken I have removed the fairleads to make releasing the sheets even easier.

Joe11688 · Jul 24, 2009

titoana said:
All this is very helpful, and like I said to Joe, clam cleats will work. This is my first bigger boat (bought it last year), and I guess my problem is that the previous wet boats I've had (hobie cat, sidewinder, etc) they all have cam cleats that allow you to adjust the head sail from the high windward side (without having to move). Of course, all these smaller fast boats are very tippy, so you need to be able to release the sheets immidiately or you are going for a swim. I guess my problem is that I am used to having this. Even though, On bigger boats, tipping this is not an issue, I envisioned having this same system (it just makes sense). Steve's cam cleat system looks good, but unless I'm overlooking something, it wouldn't let me adjust the headsail from the high side either, so I think clam cleats would do a very similar job.

David

An O'Day 25 is a pretty stable boat compared to an O'Day Mariner or similar size centerboard boat, but with all things being relative, a strong sudden puff of wind can overpower a 25 with a full Genoa sail sheeted in on a close reach, and cause it to heal. With that said, if you're able to shorten the Gennie by reefing, or even head up into the anticipated puffs, you can save yourself a lot of needless work at the sheets. Even on my small 222, I find myself just using the tiller to head up instead of messing with sheets. Of course there are going to be those rare days when that isn't going to work. On these days, your best bet is to find a protected cove and hang out on the hook, or just don't go out. I brought a friend out on my boat on a day like that, and he told me that he likes to sail on days when it's puffy and the wind comes up in different directions. I told him, "You're nuts, that isn't sailing." "That's pure torture!" I found a protected cove that day and we had lunch, hung out for a while, and then we motored back to the club.

Camelot OD25 ~ /) · Jul 24, 2009

For what its worth...all good advice so far, I put clam cleats on mine and use them exclusively. Sorry no pics.

Camelot OD25 ~ /) · Jul 24, 2009

Hey, I did find a picture...sometimes I even use the windward side as a finger rest. Hope this helps.

Please ignore the Chippendale stand-in I used for the photo. :dance:

Joe11688 · Jul 24, 2009

TJD 25 said:
Hey, I did find a picture...sometimes I even use the windward side as a finger rest. Hope this helps.

Please ignore the Chippendale stand-in I used for the photo. :dance:

Hey, that's a great picture! I'm almost certain that I got the idea for using clam cleats behind my winches from "Small Boat Journal" years ago. My clam cleats are as old as my boat and they're still working great. I also mounted two smaller self rescue clam cleats on my tiller for my two tip-up rudder pendant lines. One line holds the rudder blade down, and the other can hold the blade in the up position. These cleats will never mar or fray your running rigging. I even have the open clam cleats on my mast for my internal halyards as a temporary snub, so that I can pull the halyard off my winch and cleat it on a horn cleat without losing halyard tension. I really can't say enough about them except, they're great and I'm glad that I have them on my boat.
Joe

CAM Cleats fot head sail control

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