Forestay/furling Woes

Larry14133 · Jul 12, 2009

Head Stay

Scott,

Just talk to a rigger about this last week . Talk about replacing my furler and on my boat the foil is the head stay. He said the head stay should be the same size as the aft stay. You can go bigger if you are not worried about adding weight to the rig, ONCES at the mast head need pounds in the keel.

Regards,

Larry

Rob Hessenius · Jul 12, 2009

Scott~
1/4 is plenty for your boat. I have had very good luck with Hayn Hi-tech fittings and they are more reasonable than Sta-Loc or Navtec. By using swageless fittings and planning to add a furler later you will have no reason to buy another forestay, but you will in the future need a different drum fitting and will shorten the stay.

rpwillia · Jul 12, 2009

Get a Standard Stay

Hermit, The C30 is one of the largest production runs on the planet. There has to be someone out there who has a standard pre-made forestay for minimal $$$ you can use. There are just too many out there that you should need a custom one.

John Nantz · Jul 12, 2009

Integral??? What make is the furler?

What make is the furler?

The Hood 810 that I have has a split aluminum gizmo at the top of the furler which slides into the foil and centers the foil on the forestay and the two halves are held in place with a couple screws. After removing the screws one can take off each half.

This allows one to slide the foil over the swaged fitting to gain a few inches. This then reveals a split plastic gizmo at the bottom of the furler which is a centering device clamped onto the forestay.

At this point one can remove the furler drum. To remove the foil sections one drills out the drive rivits and then each section can be slid off. One has to buy replacement drive rivits to put the thing back together, though.

If you knew what make the furler was you could probably go to their web site and download the instruction manual. At least I'd hope so. Hopefully there is some trick part that can be taken apart to help remove the furler.

I just can't believe they'd swage the forestay ends on after the furler is put on. But then, who knows?

BobM · Jul 13, 2009

Hermit. I am going through this myself in a way. I bought the stay from rigrite with the top eye I needed swaged on. I had them cut the wire long and will do a mechanical fitting (sta-lok stud) at the bottom. Pretty much all riggers are doing mechanical lowers anyhow. Total cost was about $200. Hayn rather than Sta-lok will save about $30-40, but rigrite didn't have one in the size I needed. That cost included a new turnbuckle. A rigger wanted about $400 per stay, but insisted on replacing all of them, due to age, plus the furler to the tune of $6000. That shifted me to DIY mode.

Most, if not all, furlers have gotten away from replacing the fore stay entirely. Many older furlers did so, with just a stubby stay fitted to the top of the furler that was indeed added as a part of furler installation. Nearly all now fit onto an existing forestay. See my threads on furlers, but long story short Haarken is the gold standard, but you will pay for it and it is more difficult to install. CDI or Alado are made to be user installed and are about $700 for your boat, but do not have a swivel at the top. The swivel is a potential maintenance issue long term and you can get the dreaded "halyard wrap" if you don't hoist your sail high enough, but it provides for improved sail shape as the head and foot can furl at their own paces when reefing, providing improved sail shape. Hood has a swivel and on the phone they offered me a Seafurl 5 for half the price of a Haarken, but were a little unclear on how difficult installation is. Haarken installation is more challenging than most, as there is a lot of gluing and screwing to do, but I am sure you are up to the challenge.

I had a CDI and wasn't fond on the internal halyard. It is small and you are at a mechanical disadvantage due to the angle (pulling on a tiny halyard at an angle that is facing the bow). However, many just hook up a block at the bow and a larger line. Wish I had thought of that at the time. Plus you only have to do it infrequently. The other issue I had with the CDI was a lot of mast pumping. That may have been entirely my fault, due to insufficient backstay tension, but I feel that the flexible plastic foil exacerbated things.

The Alado has metal interlocking foils. For that reason and my own opinion that the plastic foil contributed to the mast pumping issue (sailing with the entire foil bouncing to a given frequency and squeaking....VERY annoying) I would probably go with Alado were I looking for a furler well under $1000, or consider the Hood Seafurl 5 for about $1300. There are tons of other options as well. There is an installation video on the Alado site and on youtube. It looks pretty easy. Alado furlers aren't very popular though. Once again, there is an integral halyard, but there are some sheaves, if I recall correctly, as some other small advantages.

Stay with 1/4" wire. My 25 footer had eighth and I the 1/4" on my 30 foot boat is probably overkill.

kloudie1 · Jul 13, 2009

Hermit, ya might check with the consignment guy in Kemah for a pre-owned furler.. He is at http://www.boatersresaleshopoftexas.com/
I have a mid 80’s Harken and it really works well. I have been on other boats with other brands that work but they don’t seem to have as much beef in ‘em..
The Norseman, StayLock and Hayn fittings all work very well .. Most are available in a long model that lets ya cut off existing swedge and replace with the mechanical fitting and not have a length hassle.. Ohh I guess you already know to use a thin cutting disk grinder to cut the wire rigging so the end doesn’t get mushed.. Makes installing the mechanical fitting much easier..

Stu Jackson · Jul 13, 2009

The Catalina C30 manual shows the size and length of the forestay. You can buy it from Catalina or locally. Most all furlers can use existing stays.

Barnacle Bill · Jul 13, 2009

My 2 cents is to buy a Furlex. They are the best on the market and come with a new forestay in the box so you have quality control over all components of the system. I have dealt with most furlers new and old and while many of them are very good, I think Furlex is the best and they are great people to work with. The completeness of the kit is another thing that is nice. It comes with the halyard restrainer, the blocks to run the line (included) back to the cockpit. Many other systems price them out separately. And those who sell Furlex products must go through their training process, which means the dealer usually knows what he/she is doing. But, the best part about the Furlex is the engineering and it really works and they upgrade their systems to make improvements. So, if you buy a new model, you know it is the latest state of the art. So many other systems have been the same for decades. That's my 2 cents.

John Nantz · Jul 13, 2009

Stuck foil

If the foil got stuck while trying to remove it, it may be possible that a strand or two of the forestay got broken and unraveled inside causing it to stick to it may actually be a godsend that you decided to change it out.

If the company is out of business that could be telling, too.

As for the thought about a furler that goes over the forestay and uses a large halyard, vs. a small one, it could be handy sometime if the forestay ever had to be worked on because the larger halyard could be used to hold up the mast while the forestay is disconnected.

The halyard swivel is nice to have but things with bearings do need to be maintained. Typically this means flushing the bearing out really with fresh water. The drum swivel gets hit, in our area, with salt spray so this really needs a flushing to keep the salt out.

Picking up a used furler and installing it with new bearings could be an option. Making sure the luff tape matches, of course.

Sorry to read the part about all that blood. Sounded pretty gory!

RichH · Jul 13, 2009

Hermit Scott said:
Will it be better to go to 5/16" wire size for strength?
Scott

Strength is not the issue. If you go larger in wire, you will have to load the wire to at least 12-15% of its breaking strength .... so that the SAG that occurs in the forestay matches the luff shape in the jib/genoa. You have to ask yourself a vital question: Will your chainplate/attachment system be strong enough to withstand the extra stress imparted from the larger diamenter wire and its greater (relative) stress to get that 'curve' in the luff correct? .... probably not.
If you dont load the larger diameter wire to an equal % of stress as the OEM smaller diameter, the forestay will vastly SAG off to leeward ... and you will have to have the luff of any jib/genoa totally recut to match that new shape OR your sailing performance will VASTLY decrease. If you dont recut (with the new wire at the correct stress/load%), then your boat will heel much more, wont point, will skid off to leeward when on a beat, etc. Is that additional cost for luff re-shaping (recutting the sail's "luff hollow") in your budget?

Ron20324 · Jul 13, 2009

Hermit, use the reinforced disc, not that wafer-thin one.

Scott T-Bird · Jul 14, 2009

Just offering another opinion ...

I understand your budget is tight. It makes no sense to me to select a furler based on what you can afford rather than what your actual preference may be. The price differences just aren't that great in the larger scheme of things. My suggestion is to immediately get the correct forestay for your boat and install it. A larger diameter than the spec'd forestay is a waste of money. Then, hank your sails and go sailing. Furlers are a nice convenience but no true sailer is dependant upon a furler for hoisting a head sail.

Then, look at all the liturature and decide which furler is the one that you prefer ... after all you are going to live with it so it may as well be what you want and not a compromise based on your momentary lack of funds. When you have the money for what you want, purchase it and enjoy your furler. In the meantime, get a forestay and go sailing. BTW, my preference is a Harken MK IV with twin grooves for the foil. I haven't bought it yet because it is a little pricey and it hasn't been needed. I've been hanking my head sails for the past 5 years and not missing out on any sailing over the lack of a furler.

Take it for what it's worth ... my suggestion is to get out on the water with your sails raised at your earliest opportunity!

jibes138 · Jul 14, 2009

What sails do you have in inventory?

Do you have an original headsail with hanks? If you do then the last poster is correct. If you don't then you would need to modify a sail to add hanks, not that hard a process to do yourself but you will need grommets added to the sail luff and buy some hanks.

Why don't you take some of the government surplus money and get a good furler and have the boat completely refit by a professional company. Even better just buy a brand new boat with no money down. It will take them 6 months to a year before they repossess it, you can have a blast in the meantime.

BobM · Jul 14, 2009

Actually, what will likely drive the purchase when you are on a budget is what you have for luff tape now. It is likely a #6, which is the most common. Do you know what you have? Both the CDI and Alado take a #6.

Per this site, the CDI FF7 is $999 for a C30. Delivery is 2 days.

Per their site the Alado A2 is $915 with free Fed Ex shipping and a lifetime warranty. Max stay size is 1/4. FYI if you jump to 5/16 you have to jump a furler size to ~$1500.

Many people have been very happy with their CDI furler and it has a much longer track record. There are advantages to the plastic foil, as a fixed foil can more easily be bent. In addition, the FF7 uses your boats headstay. I checked and they all do now. I seem to recall that my old FF actually used the foil as a stay with just a short length of wire and a toggle on the end attached at the top. Perhaps I was dreaming.

With your background in fabrication I am sure you will decide which you like better from an engineering perspective. CDI is in NY and their service is excellent. Aldo is in Argentina and their service is ?????