I am glad I don't live in Virginia. It's just a matter of time before it's enforced law in every state.
Alcohol and Sailboats
- Thread starter william24424
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I think that all states have adopted a BUI law. I wonder how they "Suspend" your boating privilages because we don't have "Boating" licenses.
Maryland is also very hard-core when it comes to this stuff.
Here is the unfortunate part about the laws. The laws were concocted because of a problem. The problem was unresponsible people going out and killing other people and themselves and having alcohol in their systems. It is absolutely nuts to get on a Jetski and go at 70 mph with a .10 BAC (just an example).
I work in law enforcement and seen first hand what DUI can do. It is ugly.
People's decision making processes, judgements, and motor skills are greatly impared with alcohol in the system. It isn't a good thing to do, like mixing alcohol and firearms.
The place where the law is a little skewed and messed up is that you can get a BUI in a dingy if you are running the engine. This means if you are coming back from a restaurant to your boat and running your little 2hp outboard and you have a few glasses of wine at dinner and the Marine Police stop you and smell alcohol, you can get a BUI. It takes hardly anything to reach a .08 B.A.C.
The way around BUI in Virginia in Maryland in the dingy is to not run the outboard but to row. If you come out of the bar and need to get back to your boat don't run the engine.....row! The worst they can do is Drunk in Public.
Maryland is also very hard-core when it comes to this stuff.
Here is the unfortunate part about the laws. The laws were concocted because of a problem. The problem was unresponsible people going out and killing other people and themselves and having alcohol in their systems. It is absolutely nuts to get on a Jetski and go at 70 mph with a .10 BAC (just an example).
I work in law enforcement and seen first hand what DUI can do. It is ugly.
People's decision making processes, judgements, and motor skills are greatly impared with alcohol in the system. It isn't a good thing to do, like mixing alcohol and firearms.
The place where the law is a little skewed and messed up is that you can get a BUI in a dingy if you are running the engine. This means if you are coming back from a restaurant to your boat and running your little 2hp outboard and you have a few glasses of wine at dinner and the Marine Police stop you and smell alcohol, you can get a BUI. It takes hardly anything to reach a .08 B.A.C.
The way around BUI in Virginia in Maryland in the dingy is to not run the outboard but to row. If you come out of the bar and need to get back to your boat don't run the engine.....row! The worst they can do is Drunk in Public.
Hey Timcup, FYI, in Oregon, the legal standard is that the person is deemed intoxicated if they are perceptively impaired in their mental or physical processes. Even if they are not perceptibly impaired, If their blood alcohol is 0.08% (by weight) or greater, they are conclusively (read as 'you cannot rebutt it') presumed intoxicated.
There is a little trick in DUII and BUII (boating under the influence of intoxicants) investigations, where the officer asks the person to rate their sobriety/intoxication, generally on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being sober and 10 being absolutly falling down drunk. Most people caught up in a DUII/BUII investigation rate themselves in the middle of the range, figuring they are indicating they're not that bad, and certainly not "drunk." Wrong interpretation. By admitting that they are not sober (1 on the scale) they are admitting that they are percepibly impaired in their mental or physical processes. Timcup, if drinking puts you in a state where you should not "[race] an indy car or a fighter jet" you are no longer sober within that definition. Cops and Prosecutors love that little trick.
Certainly in Oregon, and I presume in other jursidictions, you can be arrested and convicted of DUII or BUII with a breath or blood alcohol result under 0.08% BAC. Remember that either test, BAC or perceptible impairment, is sufficient by itself to support a conviction and all its nasty consequences.
Is beer or wine or etc. refreshing on a hot day. They certainly can be. But there's a time a place for everything. One of my more vivid, and frightening, memories was seeing a visibly intoxicated skipper on a bayliner sailboat run it up on a floating dock until the keel stopped further progress. I could only be thankful there was a dock between his dock and mine.
Hey bad O, nice review of Virginia law. I'd add a point from Oregon on the implied consent laws. Your refusal of field sobriety or intoxilizer tests is the only exception I am aware of to the bar on evidence of a defendant's refusing to answer or refute accusations being used against the defendant at trial. So if you refuse, they will put that refusal into evidence and argue it indicates you knew you were intoxicated.
Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
Yes....In Virginia Refusal is a seperate charge and it is admitted at the trial so that there is an explination of why no chemical test was performed. That is all for Virginia Law.
Here are some interesting facts:
A penny in the mouth WILL NOT effect a Preliminary Breath Test or Intoxilyzer.
If you belch during the 20 minute waiting period they re-start the waiting period. If you do this more than three times you will be charged with refusal.
An officer's observation for a DUI/BUI starts at initial contact and things that seem seemingly mundane are details that are used (such as fumbling for a driver's license or handing the officer a credit card instead of a driver's license).
Standardized Field Sobriety Tests are done but some of them have been adapted to the marine environment. There are a host of them.
***Best piece of advice is not to drink and drive or drink and boat. As I said...If you are coming back in the dingy after a few drinks, row, don't motor. That could save you your job, a lot of money, and a lot of grief.
Be careful out there because there are other people who WILL make unresponsible decisions and they will be DUI/BUI. These people are unpredictable, have very slow reaction times, and will do just about anything. If you see someone acting wildly or dangerously notify the proper authorities because one person make life harder on all of us.
Here are some interesting facts:
A penny in the mouth WILL NOT effect a Preliminary Breath Test or Intoxilyzer.
If you belch during the 20 minute waiting period they re-start the waiting period. If you do this more than three times you will be charged with refusal.
An officer's observation for a DUI/BUI starts at initial contact and things that seem seemingly mundane are details that are used (such as fumbling for a driver's license or handing the officer a credit card instead of a driver's license).
Standardized Field Sobriety Tests are done but some of them have been adapted to the marine environment. There are a host of them.
***Best piece of advice is not to drink and drive or drink and boat. As I said...If you are coming back in the dingy after a few drinks, row, don't motor. That could save you your job, a lot of money, and a lot of grief.
Be careful out there because there are other people who WILL make unresponsible decisions and they will be DUI/BUI. These people are unpredictable, have very slow reaction times, and will do just about anything. If you see someone acting wildly or dangerously notify the proper authorities because one person make life harder on all of us.
Having prosecuted and defended DUIIs, the best response I have is "Amen, my friend."
Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
I have seen the aftermath of some nasty alcohol related crashes. Those are some memories I could do without.
I am not Advocating Operating Anythink While Drunk But...
I would never blow in the tube if there were any question about my alcohol level. Wether capacity to operate was influenced or not is not the same issue as my BAC. I would not ride with my wife after just two glasses of wine over several hours but I know others who have a much greater capacity to consume alcohol.
I'd rather take my chances looking upright and responsible with a jury than be convicted by a machine that was bought by and maintained by the lowest bidder to the government.
I would never blow in the tube if there were any question about my alcohol level. Wether capacity to operate was influenced or not is not the same issue as my BAC. I would not ride with my wife after just two glasses of wine over several hours but I know others who have a much greater capacity to consume alcohol.
I'd rather take my chances looking upright and responsible with a jury than be convicted by a machine that was bought by and maintained by the lowest bidder to the government.
Rick, that's well and good for you, and I'm not sure about reg.s here in NC about BUI, but if you refuse in a DWI stop, the law is written so that it is an AUTOMATIC 1 year revocation of driving privileges and then there is the trial to try to get you convicted on DWI, which if successful, carries additional revocation on top of the year assessed for refusal. Doesn't sound good to me. Especially with the years of increased insurance premiums to boot. I'll have one or two once I'm anchored or docked, otherwise there are better times and places more appropriate for me. I try to keep in my mind the "what if" scenarios and the responsibility I have for OTHERS as "captain" of my vessel, whether they be on my boat or elsewhere.
Not worth it
California has some of the toughest rules. BUI is a felony here if anyone get hurt, and the Department of Motor Vehicles may add the conviction to your driving record and suspend your driver license as well. My understanding is that although the law says"may", local agencies have really pushed hard to get most convictions added to the offender's driving record. Really adds some teeth to the penalty when you can't drive a car for six month minimum.
With all the penalties and the risks involved, seems not worth chancing being over the limit, which can be as low as 0.05 in California. If out on the water, I may have a beer with lunch. Otherwise, it can wait until I'm tied up for the night.
California has some of the toughest rules. BUI is a felony here if anyone get hurt, and the Department of Motor Vehicles may add the conviction to your driving record and suspend your driver license as well. My understanding is that although the law says"may", local agencies have really pushed hard to get most convictions added to the offender's driving record. Really adds some teeth to the penalty when you can't drive a car for six month minimum.
With all the penalties and the risks involved, seems not worth chancing being over the limit, which can be as low as 0.05 in California. If out on the water, I may have a beer with lunch. Otherwise, it can wait until I'm tied up for the night.
Nope
Good beer (India Pale Ale or some micro brew beer, if not homebrew. Sam Adams is good too
Sometimes I go down to the boat to get some quiet and have a beer, but it's right behind the house
I do quite often, though usually not much until the project is done. I was pressure washing the deck earlier this year and my awesome wife brought me an ice cold one (barefoot and pregnant, I kid you not) I wondered if any neighbors saw that... she's awesome!
I've had that before made from plums I think, I liked it. It was from Croatia, neighbor friend in Germany was from there.
As far as the boating and drinking goes, it depends on the situation. If the wife is on board and not drinking, she's the captain if the law man approaches... :dance:. Of course with kids on board, safety is #1 concern. .08 is pretty rediculous if you ask me, I think that is probably like 1 beer, but whatever. If there isn't any reason for the lawman to be checking you out, they should be leaving you alone if you ask me.
As far as it goes for me, since I just bought the new boat and the tags haven't come yet, it gives anyone a really good reason to stop me and check me out, especially on a memorial day weekend.
Great thread, good info..
Particularly the part of drinking "to make people interesting"!
I don't know how much it takes to get drunk, but with food at least it's a lot more than I thought- actual fact:
My wife and I were going out to dinner for the first time with another couple (he's a cop). I had 2 cocktails at home, then at the restaurant had a beer. When they joined us, they said wine was 10 bucks off per bottle, so each couple bought one. We polished it , and dinner off, chatted, then went outside. I could feel the alcohol, and, as a joke, he pulled out his portable breathalizer (police issue) I blew a .031, less than half the legal limit. The highest of the four blew .052.
If I had to drink twice as much as I did to reach the limit, I'd puke.
I was legal to drive, but didn't feel safe, so the missus drove home.
Particularly the part of drinking "to make people interesting"!
I don't know how much it takes to get drunk, but with food at least it's a lot more than I thought- actual fact:
My wife and I were going out to dinner for the first time with another couple (he's a cop). I had 2 cocktails at home, then at the restaurant had a beer. When they joined us, they said wine was 10 bucks off per bottle, so each couple bought one. We polished it , and dinner off, chatted, then went outside. I could feel the alcohol, and, as a joke, he pulled out his portable breathalizer (police issue) I blew a .031, less than half the legal limit. The highest of the four blew .052.
If I had to drink twice as much as I did to reach the limit, I'd puke.
I was legal to drive, but didn't feel safe, so the missus drove home.
I am a breath test operator. I can tell you that machine is an amazing piece of equipment and it is incredibly accurate. It actually gives you the lowest number too because real BAC drawn from blood tends to be higher. There are reasons for this but it is all based on several theories, like the Beer Lambert Law.
Not blowing after being stopped has SERIOUS consequences. Furthermore, it is standard practice in Virginia Courts to Plea the DUI out and then drop the Refusal. WIth the DUI in Virginia you can get a restricted license and with the Refusal you can't.
Furthermore, any experienced officer can get a conviction for DUI/BUI without the breath test. Actually, I have gotten the conviction for DUI without Field Tests of Breath tests. Common observations of behavior, driving history and reason for the stop, and other circumstances can really give away your present state of impairment.
Common observations I make before the first field sobriety test is done are:
Odor of alcohol, The way a person's eyes look, the state of their clothing, their fine motor skills when doing tasks like getting their driver's license, their driving behavior, the reason for the stop, their speach, their abilit to walk, how they got out of the car, if they can actually stand still or they are swaying, and other things like that.
There are a lot of elements to a DUI/BUI. A good officer is well practiced and has a lot of knowledge of these elements, current defenses, and other issues.
The absolute worst thing that you can do if you are stopped for DUI is to act like a total ass. If you refuse everything there is still an excellent chance that you will be arrested, tried, and convicted. Make no mistake about it, everytime I have taken a DUI to court one of the questions that is asked is about the behavior of the suspect and if they were cooperative. If they are uncooperative, the hammer falls much harder and recently people have been getting JAIL TIME for first offenses.
Be very careful, be responsible, and remember that when you choose to operate any piece of equipment you are opening yourself and others up to serious harm and you are also opening yourself up to serious civil issues and lots of criminal penalities and fines.
The average first offense DUI costs the suspect about $10,000 before they are done with it.
Not blowing after being stopped has SERIOUS consequences. Furthermore, it is standard practice in Virginia Courts to Plea the DUI out and then drop the Refusal. WIth the DUI in Virginia you can get a restricted license and with the Refusal you can't.
Furthermore, any experienced officer can get a conviction for DUI/BUI without the breath test. Actually, I have gotten the conviction for DUI without Field Tests of Breath tests. Common observations of behavior, driving history and reason for the stop, and other circumstances can really give away your present state of impairment.
Common observations I make before the first field sobriety test is done are:
Odor of alcohol, The way a person's eyes look, the state of their clothing, their fine motor skills when doing tasks like getting their driver's license, their driving behavior, the reason for the stop, their speach, their abilit to walk, how they got out of the car, if they can actually stand still or they are swaying, and other things like that.
There are a lot of elements to a DUI/BUI. A good officer is well practiced and has a lot of knowledge of these elements, current defenses, and other issues.
The absolute worst thing that you can do if you are stopped for DUI is to act like a total ass. If you refuse everything there is still an excellent chance that you will be arrested, tried, and convicted. Make no mistake about it, everytime I have taken a DUI to court one of the questions that is asked is about the behavior of the suspect and if they were cooperative. If they are uncooperative, the hammer falls much harder and recently people have been getting JAIL TIME for first offenses.
Be very careful, be responsible, and remember that when you choose to operate any piece of equipment you are opening yourself and others up to serious harm and you are also opening yourself up to serious civil issues and lots of criminal penalities and fines.
The average first offense DUI costs the suspect about $10,000 before they are done with it.
In commenting about your dinner experience....remember that people have different rates of absorption of alcohol. Furthermore, you could have been on the way Up instead of the way down. The .08 is a presumptive level and I have seen convictions at .05 grams per 210 liters of breath. If the presumptive level is not reached in the breath test then the Prosecutor has to work harder to prove impairment but it is very possible.
I don't know, I sail in a small lake in a C-25. The fastest I've gotten the boat up to is 6.3 knts. I do drink beer but I don't get hammered until after I tie up. (So then I can sleep on the boat if things get out of hand!)
I feel like there's a big difference between driving a car, powerboats/jet skis going over 60MPH, the big raft up parties with under age drinkers than me and some friends plinking along at 5 knts in my sailboat. I guess I'd always assumed that enforcement would really not be looking at me, I even have wire coozie holders hanging from my safety lines.
I recently joined a small yacht club and we race Wednesday evenings and Saturdays, the sailboats I've crewed on have a few beers as well.
They just try to take the fun out of everything.
So I'm glad I read this, now I'm going to research TX BUI laws.
Blowing in the Tube
If you blow over 0.08 your pretty much toast. If you do not blow and are not stumbling around and puking on the cops shoes you leave some room for reasonable doubt and the DA may be less inclined to pursue the DUI and plea to a another charge. If I thought I might blow over the limit I'd take my chances not blowing.
I forget what the numbers are but in Florida if you are convicted of BUI and have kids on board it is a HUGE fine. Get your kids the Boating Safety Class and let them run the boat.
If you blow over 0.08 your pretty much toast. If you do not blow and are not stumbling around and puking on the cops shoes you leave some room for reasonable doubt and the DA may be less inclined to pursue the DUI and plea to a another charge. If I thought I might blow over the limit I'd take my chances not blowing.
I forget what the numbers are but in Florida if you are convicted of BUI and have kids on board it is a HUGE fine. Get your kids the Boating Safety Class and let them run the boat.
[QUOTE Posts: 1,460
Blowing in the Tube
Top
If you blow over 0.08 your pretty much toast. If you do not blow and are not stumbling around and puking on the cops shoes you leave some room for reasonable doubt and the DA may be less inclined to pursue the DUI and plea to a another charge. If I thought I might blow over the limit I'd take my chances not blowing.][/QUOTE]
As noted by Bad O, cops and prosecutor's have plenty of experience obtaining DUII convicitions with intoxilyzer results under 0.08%BAC or with no blow at all. They're not going to be slowed in the least bit by your refusal. Remember that the original, and still effective, test is not whether you're stumbling/puking drunk, its whether you are perceptibly impaired in your mental and physical capacities. Thats what all those field sobriety tests are looking at, and why they generally employ divided attention tests that require you to do two things at once. And as Bad O said, the officer is collecting evidence of your status from the moment he sees you driving. As defense cousnel, you know you have a problem when the police report states that no FST was administered because the defendant was not able to do them safely due to impairment.
As for pleading a DUII down, I know that in Oregon the law specifically prohibts prosecutors from doing that, and courts from agreeing to it. If a judge thinks plead down of a DUII in being attempted, the judge will refuse to dismiss the DUII. The price of a lot of federal highway funding has been state compliance with certain standards. That's why 0.08%BAC is the level of presumptive intoxication in all states. I believe you will find similar prohibitions on pleading down DUIIs in all states.
As for not blowing when requested by an officer having probable cause, your refusal is not just admissible at your DUII trial. It stands as a separate offense for which you can be convicted and sentenced even if you beat the DUII. Further, it will trigger an administrative (Dept of Motor Veh.) license suspension even if you are not charged, let alone convicted, of DUII.
Although the penalites for DUII and BUII differ in some details, the bottom line for either is that they are expensive PITAs. Yet avoidable by not drinking and driving or boating.
Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
Blowing in the Tube
TopIf you blow over 0.08 your pretty much toast. If you do not blow and are not stumbling around and puking on the cops shoes you leave some room for reasonable doubt and the DA may be less inclined to pursue the DUI and plea to a another charge. If I thought I might blow over the limit I'd take my chances not blowing.][/QUOTE]
As noted by Bad O, cops and prosecutor's have plenty of experience obtaining DUII convicitions with intoxilyzer results under 0.08%BAC or with no blow at all. They're not going to be slowed in the least bit by your refusal. Remember that the original, and still effective, test is not whether you're stumbling/puking drunk, its whether you are perceptibly impaired in your mental and physical capacities. Thats what all those field sobriety tests are looking at, and why they generally employ divided attention tests that require you to do two things at once. And as Bad O said, the officer is collecting evidence of your status from the moment he sees you driving. As defense cousnel, you know you have a problem when the police report states that no FST was administered because the defendant was not able to do them safely due to impairment.
As for pleading a DUII down, I know that in Oregon the law specifically prohibts prosecutors from doing that, and courts from agreeing to it. If a judge thinks plead down of a DUII in being attempted, the judge will refuse to dismiss the DUII. The price of a lot of federal highway funding has been state compliance with certain standards. That's why 0.08%BAC is the level of presumptive intoxication in all states. I believe you will find similar prohibitions on pleading down DUIIs in all states.
As for not blowing when requested by an officer having probable cause, your refusal is not just admissible at your DUII trial. It stands as a separate offense for which you can be convicted and sentenced even if you beat the DUII. Further, it will trigger an administrative (Dept of Motor Veh.) license suspension even if you are not charged, let alone convicted, of DUII.
Although the penalites for DUII and BUII differ in some details, the bottom line for either is that they are expensive PITAs. Yet avoidable by not drinking and driving or boating.
Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
Jim-My wife is a trade show/promotional model. She worked for a "dui" lawyer no too long ago handing out key chains and coozies. His advice was do not take field sobriety tests, do not blow in the tube, an be polite. If the cop asks if you are drinking say "I did have a few beers". The key chain also says you will go to jail, but the lawyer will get you out the next day.
Is it different in different states, and that's why these things are his advice, or is he just trying to instill confidence in the client that he is the one that can save them?
(I have NO trust for people that are helping me and getting paid at the same time.)
Is it different in different states, and that's why these things are his advice, or is he just trying to instill confidence in the client that he is the one that can save them?
(I have NO trust for people that are helping me and getting paid at the same time.)
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