We have a "new" '85 Jeanneau 32 (Attalia), and it came with the vinyle headliner, (and sides) in the head, inside lockers, cupboards, and the upper outside shelves of the V-berth, which has peeled away from the hull. The main cabin is untouched, save the stowage areas behind the the cushions-next to the hull. We attempted using contact cement, but just discovered this did not hold through the winter. There is grey coloured foam, in the consistency of crumbs-designed to provide some padding for when your head bashes against it, so I was hesitant to remove it. What can I do to solve this "padding" issue, and is my only alternative epoxy? Is there an explaination for this-does it have to do with most of the damage on the enclosed area next to the hull-for the lockers and V-berth. But in the head, as there is a sink in a counter on the outboard side, it's the wall, (and ceiling), next to the engine compartment that is affected. Is this a normal issue? I heard one owner who started all over, and then did it all in teak. I'm sure it looks flawless, but I am neither a carpenter, nor have the money to pay for such extravagance. Any suggestions? Thanks ever so much for your assistance.
Headliner Peeling Away
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What a mess.. I feel for you, having had to deal with that in a 23 foot boat. The polyurethane foam backing has corroded and turned to the crummy mess you see.. I pulled mine out, vacuumed and cleaned and brushed then installed padded automobile external vinyl top material, using spray adhesive designed for that job.
I could not get the old material to stick to the hull, even after vacuuming the crumbs out. Good luck with it..
I could not get the old material to stick to the hull, even after vacuuming the crumbs out. Good luck with it..
The foam
That foam once it starts to crumble is good for only for depositing in a trash bag. Absolutely nothing you can do with it. There are about as many different fixes as there are members on this board. But the basics are, remove it and replace it with something else, or remove it and paint. I did a combination of both, using a wood paneling everywhere except the V berth. V berth I just painted. Wish I would have faired the V berth first, but time was a problem so just scraped, vacumed and painted over the raw glass. Don't look too bad, but not great either. Lots and lots of choices available, unfortunately none of them very easy. Most who replace with some kind of wood epoxy furring strips on, and attache to those. Removing the old foam makes a hell of a mess. Make sure your shop vac is working good.
That foam once it starts to crumble is good for only for depositing in a trash bag. Absolutely nothing you can do with it. There are about as many different fixes as there are members on this board. But the basics are, remove it and replace it with something else, or remove it and paint. I did a combination of both, using a wood paneling everywhere except the V berth. V berth I just painted. Wish I would have faired the V berth first, but time was a problem so just scraped, vacumed and painted over the raw glass. Don't look too bad, but not great either. Lots and lots of choices available, unfortunately none of them very easy. Most who replace with some kind of wood epoxy furring strips on, and attache to those. Removing the old foam makes a hell of a mess. Make sure your shop vac is working good.
Sorry to hear about your plight
Given the input from others, you may want to consider how much of what is hidden behind the liner may eventually require access, like winch bases, sheet stoppers, anything mounted on deck, before you choose to replace the liner. While the liner may dress up the interior quite smartly, you may want to be selective on where you replace it. Good luck.
Given the input from others, you may want to consider how much of what is hidden behind the liner may eventually require access, like winch bases, sheet stoppers, anything mounted on deck, before you choose to replace the liner. While the liner may dress up the interior quite smartly, you may want to be selective on where you replace it. Good luck.
A good way to replace the overhead is to add furring strips and then put in thin panels of either marine ply—which can be covered with cloth or painted if desired, or some sort of laminate. You can actually cut out access panels and block them in with furring strips separately, so that you have quick and easy access to any deck hardware. You can often also insulate above such an overhead setup, making the boat far more comfortable in extremely hot or cold weather.
If you go with paint rather than covering the plywood with cloth, this can actually be fairly inexpensive to do. Boulter Plywood is a good source for the plywood, if you're in the New England area.
If you go with paint rather than covering the plywood with cloth, this can actually be fairly inexpensive to do. Boulter Plywood is a good source for the plywood, if you're in the New England area.
It's not too hard...
Don't be dissuaded by the other posts. Replacing a head liner is really well within your capabilities. I restore boats professionally and I have replaced dozens of head liners.
The limiting factors are your creativity, your access to proper tools and your budget. Since you mentioned you're not a carpenter and you don't have a ton of money to throw at this project, let's rule out teak panels, tongue and groove or other forms of wooden head liners.
Economically, you still have some choices. The easiest, cheapest and simplest are foam-backed vinyl, laminate (formica) or going without... You can use plain vinyl without the foam backing, but the foam will hide (or at least soften) surface imperfections. Because you had foam backed vinyl on the boat already, the simplest thing to do is replace it with the same product.
The first thing you need to do is prepare the surface for a new liner. This means more than just dusting it off with a whisk broom. Start with soap water and a scotchbrite pad and remove all traces of the previous liner, foam and as much glue residue as possible. Then (wear gloves - nitrile is good, so are heavy duty kitchen gloves) wipe down the entire contact surface with a solvent. -I recommend denature alcohol. Acetone will make quick work of the glue residue but it's odor is more toxic and it flashes off (evaporates) so quick that you'll be constantly rewetting the surface. Denatured alcohol actually has fewer impurities than acetone, is more user friendly and won't get you very high.- After wiping the surface down, try not to touch any part of the hull or headliner with your bare skin, this leaves an oily residue that can weaken the bond of the glue you'll use.
If you still have the discarded vinyl you can use them as templates, if you don't, then you'll have to make new panels. It's not necessary to be that exact here, just cut about and inch more than you need on all sides. it will get trimmed down later.
*important* If you are holding up fabric against the hull to get the right shape, use a pen to mark it, then cut it later on a flat workpiece, don't try to cut it in place. At best you will slice up the finished surfaces of your boat and at worst, you'll have to adjust to the nickname, "Lefty".
Once the panels are cut and the substrate is clean, you can apply the contact cement. Do NOT get the waterbased (often marketed as "nonflammable") contact cement. This is what failed you the first time. You want the urethane based, extremely toxic, explosive stuff with warnings all over the can. Did I mention it's extremely toxic and explosive? That's because it's extremely toxic and explosive. I only mention that it's extremely toxic and explosive because of its extreme toxicity and explosivity.
Don't worry...
Buy a respirator (about $30-$40) not a gas mask, not a dust mask, not a handkerchief tied over your nose like Butch cassidy. Get and actual NIOSH approved particulate respirator with cartriges. This will protect you from the EXTREME TOXICITY. Then turn off the power to the boat and extinguish any pilot lights you might have aboard. If you have any friends who are learning how to eat fire or possibly surprise you with a birthday cake, advise them to stay home. This will protect you from the EXPLOSIVITY. Ok, just to say it, because some people really are that stupid, don't smoke.
Open the hatches and spray or brush the contact cement on both the hull and the liner material (yes, the foam side, not the vinyl side. Seriously, I've seen it done). I prefer brushing it on because you can get and even coat and there's less waste, but spraying is fine too. When it comes time to do the vinyl, take it outside and coat it there. Only apply the cement inside if there's no ther choice.
Once it dries (about half an hour at normal temps) do it again. You don't want to have to face this problem again in a year and raw fiberglass is a fairly porous material. Wait for it to dry again (it will be claer and glossy) then CARFULLY, start applying the liner. It will bond instantly so take your time line it up right, start at the middle of the top and work outwards and down. If you screw up and get a wrinkle, try to press it flat rater than pulling around it. The glue will have a tenacious grip and will only cause you to strech the vinyl around the wrinkle making it look like a worse mess than it started out to be.
After you've applied the vinyl cut off (or tuck in) the excess material. You can also judiciously use strips of teak trim to give it a finished look.
For the cabintop (not the hull liner) you can use the same procedure. If, however, you have wiring to hide or need access to deck fittings, you will want to use panels.
For panels, I recommend laminate (Formica), but I'll tell you how to do vinyl also (laminates are great for cabintop headliners, but lousy for hull liners because hulls have compound curves and laminates will only curve on one plane).
First, you'll need something for the panels to attach to. If you're not handy with tools, purchase some strips of wood (3/16" to 1/4" will be fine) that are a little longer than the width of the cabintop. The camber (or curve) of the cabintop will suck in some of the length. Use tape or a pencil to mark exactly where you want the panels to be. They can be any size or shape you want, but anything bigger than about 3' x 5' becomes unwieldy to work with. Generally, panels run in about 2' widths all the way across the cabintop. This is the easiest and most visually appealing method.
You're going to laminate two strips together making them a total of about a 1/2" thick, but you're going to start by just doing the first piece of each furring strip. Any time the strip must cross wiring or anything else you may need access to later, cut the strip leaving a gap for the wiring (the second layer of the furring strip will be unbroken)
You're going to start by coating the back of each furring strip with thickened epoxy resin and screwing the furring strips in place. Three things to mention here; always predrill the holes for the screws, always countersink the predrilled holes and start in the middle of the cabintop and work your way outboard.
When the first layer furring strips are glued and screwd to the underside of the cabin top, coat the back side of the remaining furring strips with glue and screw them into the first strips. The screws only touch the fiberglass cabintop and not create any new holes.
That was the hardest part.
Next, hop into your car or truck and go to Lowe's or Home Depot and purchase a 4x8 sheet of laminate (Lowe's has Formica, HD has Wilsonart, they're basically the same). If you have a truck big enough for it to lay flat, then perfect. If you're driving a little Ford Hiccup or a Toyota Burp, you might want to bring a razor knife with you to cut the sheet into manageable chunks. The sheet will roll up, but not very tightly. If it's too tightly rolled, it'll probably snap. To cut laminate, score the surfaced side TWICE, making sure you have cut deeply enough, then fold the two halves toward each other. It'll snap nice and clean.
Also buy a box of 1/2" stainless steel #6 oval-head screws and a box of #6 finish washers.
Cut the laminate (using the method above) to the dimensions you want (allow 1/4" gap between panels). When the panels are all cut, use some nicley finished teak battens screwed into the furring strips to hide the edges of the panels and finish them off with the screws and finish washers. (These will allow you future access to the panels without destroying the finish on the battens)
If you want to use vinyl instead, do everything exactly the same, but instead of buying laminate, get some thin (1/8" or 1/4") plywood instead and glue the vinyl to each panel. Pull the excess material around the edges and staple (stainless staples) it in place
Don't be dissuaded by the other posts. Replacing a head liner is really well within your capabilities. I restore boats professionally and I have replaced dozens of head liners.
The limiting factors are your creativity, your access to proper tools and your budget. Since you mentioned you're not a carpenter and you don't have a ton of money to throw at this project, let's rule out teak panels, tongue and groove or other forms of wooden head liners.
Economically, you still have some choices. The easiest, cheapest and simplest are foam-backed vinyl, laminate (formica) or going without... You can use plain vinyl without the foam backing, but the foam will hide (or at least soften) surface imperfections. Because you had foam backed vinyl on the boat already, the simplest thing to do is replace it with the same product.
The first thing you need to do is prepare the surface for a new liner. This means more than just dusting it off with a whisk broom. Start with soap water and a scotchbrite pad and remove all traces of the previous liner, foam and as much glue residue as possible. Then (wear gloves - nitrile is good, so are heavy duty kitchen gloves) wipe down the entire contact surface with a solvent. -I recommend denature alcohol. Acetone will make quick work of the glue residue but it's odor is more toxic and it flashes off (evaporates) so quick that you'll be constantly rewetting the surface. Denatured alcohol actually has fewer impurities than acetone, is more user friendly and won't get you very high.- After wiping the surface down, try not to touch any part of the hull or headliner with your bare skin, this leaves an oily residue that can weaken the bond of the glue you'll use.
If you still have the discarded vinyl you can use them as templates, if you don't, then you'll have to make new panels. It's not necessary to be that exact here, just cut about and inch more than you need on all sides. it will get trimmed down later.
*important* If you are holding up fabric against the hull to get the right shape, use a pen to mark it, then cut it later on a flat workpiece, don't try to cut it in place. At best you will slice up the finished surfaces of your boat and at worst, you'll have to adjust to the nickname, "Lefty".
Once the panels are cut and the substrate is clean, you can apply the contact cement. Do NOT get the waterbased (often marketed as "nonflammable") contact cement. This is what failed you the first time. You want the urethane based, extremely toxic, explosive stuff with warnings all over the can. Did I mention it's extremely toxic and explosive? That's because it's extremely toxic and explosive. I only mention that it's extremely toxic and explosive because of its extreme toxicity and explosivity.
Don't worry...
Buy a respirator (about $30-$40) not a gas mask, not a dust mask, not a handkerchief tied over your nose like Butch cassidy. Get and actual NIOSH approved particulate respirator with cartriges. This will protect you from the EXTREME TOXICITY. Then turn off the power to the boat and extinguish any pilot lights you might have aboard. If you have any friends who are learning how to eat fire or possibly surprise you with a birthday cake, advise them to stay home. This will protect you from the EXPLOSIVITY. Ok, just to say it, because some people really are that stupid, don't smoke.
Open the hatches and spray or brush the contact cement on both the hull and the liner material (yes, the foam side, not the vinyl side. Seriously, I've seen it done). I prefer brushing it on because you can get and even coat and there's less waste, but spraying is fine too. When it comes time to do the vinyl, take it outside and coat it there. Only apply the cement inside if there's no ther choice.
Once it dries (about half an hour at normal temps) do it again. You don't want to have to face this problem again in a year and raw fiberglass is a fairly porous material. Wait for it to dry again (it will be claer and glossy) then CARFULLY, start applying the liner. It will bond instantly so take your time line it up right, start at the middle of the top and work outwards and down. If you screw up and get a wrinkle, try to press it flat rater than pulling around it. The glue will have a tenacious grip and will only cause you to strech the vinyl around the wrinkle making it look like a worse mess than it started out to be.
After you've applied the vinyl cut off (or tuck in) the excess material. You can also judiciously use strips of teak trim to give it a finished look.
For the cabintop (not the hull liner) you can use the same procedure. If, however, you have wiring to hide or need access to deck fittings, you will want to use panels.
For panels, I recommend laminate (Formica), but I'll tell you how to do vinyl also (laminates are great for cabintop headliners, but lousy for hull liners because hulls have compound curves and laminates will only curve on one plane).
First, you'll need something for the panels to attach to. If you're not handy with tools, purchase some strips of wood (3/16" to 1/4" will be fine) that are a little longer than the width of the cabintop. The camber (or curve) of the cabintop will suck in some of the length. Use tape or a pencil to mark exactly where you want the panels to be. They can be any size or shape you want, but anything bigger than about 3' x 5' becomes unwieldy to work with. Generally, panels run in about 2' widths all the way across the cabintop. This is the easiest and most visually appealing method.
You're going to laminate two strips together making them a total of about a 1/2" thick, but you're going to start by just doing the first piece of each furring strip. Any time the strip must cross wiring or anything else you may need access to later, cut the strip leaving a gap for the wiring (the second layer of the furring strip will be unbroken)
You're going to start by coating the back of each furring strip with thickened epoxy resin and screwing the furring strips in place. Three things to mention here; always predrill the holes for the screws, always countersink the predrilled holes and start in the middle of the cabintop and work your way outboard.
When the first layer furring strips are glued and screwd to the underside of the cabin top, coat the back side of the remaining furring strips with glue and screw them into the first strips. The screws only touch the fiberglass cabintop and not create any new holes.
That was the hardest part.
Next, hop into your car or truck and go to Lowe's or Home Depot and purchase a 4x8 sheet of laminate (Lowe's has Formica, HD has Wilsonart, they're basically the same). If you have a truck big enough for it to lay flat, then perfect. If you're driving a little Ford Hiccup or a Toyota Burp, you might want to bring a razor knife with you to cut the sheet into manageable chunks. The sheet will roll up, but not very tightly. If it's too tightly rolled, it'll probably snap. To cut laminate, score the surfaced side TWICE, making sure you have cut deeply enough, then fold the two halves toward each other. It'll snap nice and clean.
Also buy a box of 1/2" stainless steel #6 oval-head screws and a box of #6 finish washers.
Cut the laminate (using the method above) to the dimensions you want (allow 1/4" gap between panels). When the panels are all cut, use some nicley finished teak battens screwed into the furring strips to hide the edges of the panels and finish them off with the screws and finish washers. (These will allow you future access to the panels without destroying the finish on the battens)
If you want to use vinyl instead, do everything exactly the same, but instead of buying laminate, get some thin (1/8" or 1/4") plywood instead and glue the vinyl to each panel. Pull the excess material around the edges and staple (stainless staples) it in place
Yes, Tim's point about finding and fixing any leaks before going ahead with a repair is a very, very good idea. If there are any leaks, they will quickly destroy whatever you put up unless you fix them before going ahead with the repair.
Thanks for all the help. Fortunately the damage is primarily the curve in the ceiling of the head. Other areas affected are behind the cushions in the main cabin, and inside the two hanging lockers. (Harder perhaps will be just the sides of the V-berth above the shelf-but the ceiling is just fine). I have sourced auto padded vinyl, and will buy the toxic glue and mask for the job. My question is, as the vinyl in the head is not torn or discoloured, can I not glue new foam, after the prep, and then glue the original vinyl back into place? Matching the colour is obviously impossible, close would be nice, but the original best. As to the leak, there is no evidence of such. However the po passed away four years before we got her, so sitting closed in the yard more likely did the damage, (as it was clear the previous owner was meticulous-given items onboard, and a member of RCYC-most unlikely to allow such a blight). I can't quite recall the position of deck gear, but also do not recall any hardware in the area concerned-hopefully. The guy with the auto vinyl says it will stick using the adhessive spray as directed. Given the in-depth know-how from godelesher, I'll take his advice. Again this advice is awesome.
1. You might want to consider not bothering with the hidden areas. Extra work vs. return on investment in time and materials.
2. Wouldn't bet on it, but not a bad start. It's YOUR boat now, trust NO ONE ELSE to take care of it the way YOU will. Often when folks know they're selling, for whatever reason, many times health, basic maintenanc gets neglected.
Follow Tim's advice. Glad we could help.
Thanks for the help with this-a new fountain of information. Still in the dark on one aspect. Is it possible to glue new foam, (after all the prep work as suggested by godelesher) to the hull, and then the original vinyl on that? Or will I never get the old glue off the original headliner-from our attempt last year?. I will get the foam out behind the cushions-and lockers-as they are virtually useless space as is-and on this vessel, storage space is a premium. Yes more work now, but it'll be done. I can't imagine it will be harder than grinding and sanding the hull for VC tar and VC 17 paint-in winter. What about using a roll of duck tape to assist in removing the foam? Have secured the shop-vac and mask already. I'll report later on my progress-once Spring finally gets here!!!
Nds. organic vapor protection not particulates
Buy a respirator (about $30-$40) not a gas mask, not a dust mask, not a handkerchief tied over your nose like Butch cassidy. Get and actual NIOSH approved particulate respirator with cartriges. This will protect you from the EXTREME TOXICITY.
Correction...a particulate respirator only protects you from particles.He will need organic vapor cartridges, but should check the can on the adhesive to make sure he doesn't need something in particular.
Be sure you get one that fits your face well. Put it on then block the valve with your hand and blow. Shouldn't hear any leaks when you do so. Probably be useful for changing the hoses on the holding tank too.
Actually...if you shop around you can do better than I thought. Pay attention to the cartridge prices though, as they will soon outstrip the cost of the mask.
http://greensafetysupply.com/3m5000series-3-2.aspx
Bob
Re: Nds. organic vapor protection not particulates
Thanks for the concern for my health BobM. Apart from the mask, (and obviously not while the toxic cement is onboard), would it be an idea to have a couple of fans running, or would this it make it worse I wonder. And I guess top of the line googles go without saying too. Original vinyl a chance?
Thanks for the concern for my health BobM. Apart from the mask, (and obviously not while the toxic cement is onboard), would it be an idea to have a couple of fans running, or would this it make it worse I wonder. And I guess top of the line googles go without saying too. Original vinyl a chance?
BTW, I highly recommend the full-face mask respirators, rather than the half-mask with goggles.. the full face mask provides more protection, is more comfortable, and less likely to fog up.
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