Classic Cruiser vrs Modern Cruiser

[Franklin]

I don't want this to turn into a thread war of which is better. It's more of a thread to discuss an article in the current PS mag about the modern day cruiser boat design.

The one thing that held my attention in this article was them talking about how a classic cruiser can handle gusts better then most modern day cruisers. I've kind of got that feeling myself with my little experience with different sailboats. My boat is very sensitive to gusts. Now it doesn't go nearly as far as one boat they said would actually tack during a gust, but it can get difficult to keep the heading if I have it trimmed for 15 and it gusts to 18.

The sumerization of the article was that the modern boats tend to get out of balance when healed over causing a lot of weather helm, due to the wide stern, the small keel surface, the flat bottom, the large mains with small jibs and so on. They did say that the modern cruising boats are designed to go a lot faster, theoretically, and for those with a large crew on deck, like racers, the fact that they need constant adjustment is no big deal. But for shorthanded cruisers like me, constantly adjusting sail in the middle of the night of a long distance cruise is not desirable.

So my question is, do you think they are a lot faster? If so, what conditions?

After some conversations with other cruisers who said they motored 80% of the time in their blue-water boat, I've felt for years it's better to have a light boat for cruising as I hate motoring. However, if I'm cruising in the south pacific singlehanded, I'm going to be sleeping a lot at night. At night is when it seems the wind loves to change. It sure would be nice to have a boat that could heal a lot without creating an unbalanced helm to beat the auto-pilot up on. Sure, if it gets bad I'm sure it will wake me and I'll reduce sail, but in the mentime, a boat that can handle a few knots change in wind would be nice.

As hard as it is for me to admit it, I'm kind of torn now between a classic and a modern cruiser.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Why not just focus on one of many contemporary boats built to "classic" standards?
It doesn't need to be an either-or choice.

 

[Ross]

What this is about is shapes and sail carrying ability. If you look at some of the very old wooden gaff rigged boats carrying their full hamper, they could spread a cloud of sail and take it down as the wind piped up. Pictures of Curlew by Tim and Pauline Carr show Curlew flying what looks like a thousand square feet of sail. There is no sky showing from stem to stern. The more modern boats with engines allow us to be a little lazy and in a hurry so we turn the key instead of bending on more canvas. Slocum reported that Spray would hold course for several days at a time with the rudder lashed. Wetted area and pointing ability are more important to some buyers and consequently some builders then are long underbodies with deep full bilges.
At the extremes you find a J-24 and a Lyle hess design Serrifin, also 24 feet on deck or a Flicka.

On another note, over on the wooden boat forum there is a man who has sailed single handed around three times. He said that he did his sleeping during the day and stayed awake at night.

 

[Franklin]

Why not just focus on one of many contemporary boats built to "classic" standards?
It doesn't need to be an either-or choice.

I like many of the features of the modern cruiser. Longer waterline = higher hull speed. fin keel and spade rudder = less resistance and great turning. Flat bottom = more stable and I believe less resistance (not totally sure on that one). Wide stern = living space (nice when you actually live on the boat verse just spending a few days/months on it).

Some of those features make it theorectially faster. However, when I did the race across the gulf, there was a bluewater boat that kept stride for stride with me most of the way. It was a Tayana 37' like this one (http://www.sailingtexas.com/stayana37a.html). It had a rating of 213 to my 150. The conditions that race were a little rough with winds starting at 28 knots true, down from 35 the night before and blowing the same direction for days. The waves at start were reported choppy 9-11 and seemed at least that. So obviously, my boat was not that much faster then theirs in those conditions...and yes, I do believe the sailtrim was right as I did beat a 54' C&C with an very experienced racer as captain.

So I wonder how the Tayana 37' would have faired with me in light winds.

 

[Rick D]

You May Be Over Analyzing, Franklin...

I think you are correct that a lot of cruisers motor a lot. However, I suspect that is more a function of cruising to and from close ports. However, a friend's log shows over 90% motoring from Mexico to Alaska. OTOH, I did 1400 miles the other direction and only motored 30 hours.

In my VERY humble opinion, your focus might be better placed on how easy the basic boat will be to modify to your needs, having adequate sails to meet your goal of sailing less, enough tankage to cover your motoring, really good AP, stowage, etc. I think you can get modern boats to balance out OK. Besides, at least in my experience, it usually lightens up at night (and gets shifty).

I just looked at Southern California PHRF ratings. In general, the production boats of current vintage are about 5-10% faster in their ratings than 70's boats of similar size. I would guess they are easier to handle because they weigh a bit less and have more modern rigs with greater mainsail drive and less overlap. They should move in light air a bit more easily. Of course, simplicity, ruggedness, cost and cost to bring them up to standard are all factors too.

I read the article and wasn't too impressed. My current and last boat were 90's vintage. In my opinion, they were easier to balance than my two 70's era ones before them. Some of that may be size related, but those 70's boats healed easier and were more happy sailing that way whereas the 90's boats carrying proportionately more beam prefer sailing more upright. This, of course, is a survey of one. "Your experience may vary"

Good luck and I'm sure you'll do just fine in whatever floats you.

PS: Re Tayana... there are very different ones. A friend's was a dog sailing; others with more modern underbodies sure look fast. It may have been my frinds sailing ability too. He was a disaster racing with me and he no longer gets invites. Still, I think in +25 knots, most boats are at their design speed anyhow, so I'd suggest the better question is how it does in 8-16 knots, depending on where you think you'll be cruising.

PPS: I meant that tread title as a funny one to you. Just looked at it and saw that you might not take it that way.

 

[Franklin]

... so I'd suggest the better question is how it does in 8-16 knots, depending on where you think you'll be cruising.

yeah...that's kind of what I'm asking. Are the blue water boats much slower in light winds? I can sail ok in 8 knots apparent in protected waters and 10 knots apparent in open waters with say 4.5 to 5 knots. They say IPs are very slow and I've seen some Morgans that took 12 knots to get it going and 18 to move it good.

The article did talk about the classic boats tending to be more tender and healing more.

PPS: I meant that tread title as a funny one to you. Just looked at it and saw that you might not take it that way.

I hear that a lot and also "you think too much" Just my nature.

I've been getting my boat ready for at least the first part of my cruising. Everything on my boat is new except the mast, rigging and hatches and the last two are scheduled to be replaced in a year or two.

I put in a Type 1 Raymarine rotary drive auto-pilot this past fall and it does pretty good, but I have to admit that it's not as strong as I had hoped. I took it offshore and put it under a heavy load (full sails with gusts to 19-20 knots...normally reducing sail at 16 or 17 knots). I wanted to see how it handled being over-powered and most of the time it did ok but a couple of times it skiped trying to keep it's course with the induced weather helm, which I don't think is good for the auto-pilot. I thought about getting the Type 2 when ordering but didn't like the 4-6 amps it was rated at verse the 2-4 amps for the type 1.

So I'm not too far away from having my boat ready but the article just got me thinking.

 

[sailaway78]

My only real life comparison

My only real life comparison would be TonyB's boat. For those who don't know, this is a 39' Allied, ketch rigged, full keel boat. I have mentioned this some before. It answers all your complaints. I doesn't matter about wind changes. You probably can tell very little difference between 15 knots and 20 knots, as far as heel angle or pointing abilities. That thing goes like it is on rails. We did Tampa - Houston, without an auto pilot, and I did not hear one complaint. Three crew on four hour watches. One night, mid gulf, we were in 8 to 10 footers. Big enough that sitting at the helm seat, I would have to look way up to see the tops of them. Not only didn't the boat care, it was a pretty comfortable ride. On the negative side, the boat is sort of slow, if compard to a more modern hull design. It doesn't point well, tacking angles being over 100 degrees. Helm response when compared to a fin keel boat is slow. We joked about turning the wheel, and counting to ten before anything happened. It isn't really that bad, but helm response is very noticably slower. But if I was going to cross an ocean, that is what I would prefer to do it in. I just don't think there is a really happy medium.

 

[sailaway78]

My only real life comparison

My only real life comparison would be TonyB's boat. For those who don't know, this is a 39' Allied, ketch rigged, full keel boat. Mid to late 70's. I have mentioned this some before. It answers all your complaints. I doesn't matter about wind changes. You probably can tell very little difference between 15 knots and 20 knots, as far as heel angle or pointing abilities. That thing goes like it is on rails. We did Tampa - Houston, without an auto pilot, and I did not hear one complaint. Three crew on four hour watches. One night, mid gulf, we were in 8 to 10 footers. Big enough that sitting at the helm seat, I would have to look way up to see the tops of them. Not only didn't the boat care, it was a pretty comfortable ride. On the negative side, the boat is sort of slow, when compared to a more "modern" hull design. It doesn't point well, tacking angles being over 100 degrees. Helm response when compared to a fin keel boat is slow. We joked about turning the wheel, and counting to ten before anything happened. It isn't really that bad, but helm response is very noticably slower. But if I was going to cross an ocean, that is what I would prefer to do it in. I just don't think there is a really happy medium. Modern boats are built to be used differently. It is amazing what Hunter and Catalina can manage to fit into such a limited space. But there is that price to pay in performance.

 

[Franklin]

On the classic boats, does the weather helm increase as the boat heals more?

 

[Roger Long]

If you are going shorthanded to the South Pacific you absolutely must have a windvane. That autopilot will use up a huge amount of fuel or solar power that could be going to something else. Just think how tired you are after steering for 12 hours straight. All that energy has to come from somewhere. Worse, when the autopilot craps out, as you can plan on with that duty cycle, you'll be stuck.

I also have a very quick turning boat where you can't let go of the helm for a second on most courses. With the wheel brake set, I can dodge below or run forward for about 20 seconds with the wind forward of the beam. With the wind aft, forget it. With the Cape Horn wind vane, she's suddenly a docile ocean cruiser although there is a bit of a learning curve figuring out how to adjust it. I also have an electric autopilot for use under power when electrical supply is not an issue.

You are correct that your wide, light, flat boat will be much more responsive to changes in wind strength and much more challenging to either an autopilot, windvane, or human. It's the laws of physics. You can't fight it.

Your boat is also faster than a more docile traditional type. If you reduce sail until you are going about the speed you would be going in a traditional cruiser, you will find her much more managable. You'll also be going that speed with less sail and sail handling work. In puffy and unstable conditions, you may have to actually go slower than the traditional cruiser. When conditions are right or you have the crew however, you will have the option of going a bit faster.

 

[Roger Long]

On the classic boats, does the weather helm increase as the boat heals more?

Yes although it may not be as noticable. Heel is the primary contributer to weather helm. The CE / CLP balance business is pretty much a crock, something I'll talk about sometime when I'm in the mood for a long flame war. Maybe after I finish the stability stuff on my web site.

 

[Mike B]

Franklin, I think one of the things you have to take into consideration is where and how you intend on sailing. I don't think there's any question most of the newer boats sail faster and point higher. If perhaps they sail 10% faster that may only amount to .5 to .8 kts but depending on the distance traveled and it can make a big difference in travel time. If you consider that many of the newer boats will sail closer to weather than their classic counterparts then I think you have a combined benefit. Here on the Chesapeake Bay winds are commonly on the nose. I can either tack my way along or turn on the motor and run a direct course. I'd prefer to sail but not if it's going to take me all day in a slug. Now if I have a newer designed boat that points well and is faster then I will sail and make good time. Definately a benefit in my book. How they handle rough weather, as you'll find in the oceans and open bays, is another story. I think many of the new designs are just fine and are proving you don't need a heavy displacement boat to be comfortable in snotty weather. Given a good turn of speed they can help get you out of, or away from, a storm quicker. Again not a big deal on a couple of hour run, but make it an all day event and I'll be more than happy to be tied up while the others are still slogging along. Just another point of view.
Mike

 

[Franklin]

I guess I could reduce sail ahead of time before I turn it in to give the boat a cushion.

As for the windvange, do they make them for the open transomes?

 

[Ross]

I guess I could reduce sail ahead of time before I turn it in to give the boat a cushion.

As for the windvange, do they make them for the open transomes?

Franklin , You know those webbing nets they stretch across the back of pickup trucks in lew of tail gates? you might want to consider such for you boat just in case you are in the cockpit when you get pooped.

 

[sailaway78]

Offshore

Franklin,
What I do when offshore single handed, is only sleep in the daytime. It doesn't take very long to become accustomed to it. I just don't feel comfortable at all sleeping when visibility is poor or bad. Also I find it is easier to take shorter naps, and wake up much easier when it's light than when dark. If your like me, it takes only the slightest change in boat movement for me to be fully awake.

 

[newly anonymous]

bad assumption

[/color]
yeah...that's kind of what I'm asking. Are the blue water boats much slower in light winds?

you're asking about "blue water boats" under the stereotypical assumption that the older heavy full-keeled designs are suitable for "blue-water" passages and the more modern fin-keeled lighter designs are not. This is simply not true. Granted, there are a great number of boat salesmen who would love you to believe this, which is why the whole "blue water boat" mystique was originally dreamed up, but at this point hundreds of thousands of fin-keeled production boats have demonstrated that they are suited to blue-water voyaging.

It's hype. Nothing but hype. And, Franklin, you should know better than to take it hook line and sinker.

 

[Franklin]

Franklin , You know those webbing nets they stretch across the back of pickup trucks in lew of tail gates? you might want to consider such for you boat just in case you are in the cockpit when you get pooped.

Not worried about that. Been popped and not a big deal on the open transom. Water goes out almost as fast as it comes in and it only carries very light stuff with it which I don't keep lying around in the cockpit.

Only problem is that little hatch to the aft cabin leaks, I think due to the pressure...it doesn't leak when washing the boat.

 

[Franklin]

Franklin,
What I do when offshore single handed, is only sleep in the daytime. It doesn't take very long to become accustomed to it. I just don't feel comfortable at all sleeping when visibility is poor or bad. Also I find it is easier to take shorter naps, and wake up much easier when it's light than when dark. If your like me, it takes only the slightest change in boat movement for me to be fully awake.

I do my sleeping at night but when in a busy area like near shore and shipping lanes, I take half hour naps in the cockpit with radar alarm set. But my experience and of those I've read, once out deep, you almost never see anybody.

 

[Franklin]

you're asking about "blue water boats" under the stereotypical assumption that the older heavy full-keeled designs are suitable for "blue-water" passages and the more modern fin-keeled lighter designs are not. ...

Just using the terms that others like to use. I know my boat can do anything I want to do. I just was wondering about other boats. I really don't see myself giving it up as it's a part of me and I've definately put a lot of money in it.

 

[Roger Long]

As for the windvange, do they make them for the open transomes?

Yes.

http://www.capehorn.com/

These are light, elegant designs with many circumnavigations. Installation is more work since they are intended to be integrated into the boat. That's a feature I consider a big plus but some others consider a minus.

You can get units that bolt on with just 4 bolts and have more sophisticated gearing ratios but you end up with control lines running all over the cockpit. Mine has steers my rather squirrely boat quite well and no lines are visible inboard of the transom above deck.

Very helpful folks. My installation here:

http://www.rogerlongboats.com/Windvane.htm