A battery question of a different flavor

Maine Sail · Dec 18, 2008

I can't

I can't even remember the last time I replaced an auto battery. I have had them last 8-9+ though. The one currently in my wife's car is almost six years old with about 130k on it. That's a lot of "dumb regulator" charging...

Oh and that battery has been killed to the point of not even a "click, click" more than just a few times as the rear dome light switch is easy to hit...

Steve Dion · Dec 18, 2008

I don't fuss over my batteries. I purchased Gel cells and they seem to last for 10 or more years.

If you live in a place like Phoenix AZ or Fargo, ND you may not see as much life out of your battery.

I think that car batteries are usually better taken care of than many boats. We have the group of sailors that DO NOT leave their chargers on 24x7 or we have ones that have poor quality chargers that do not properly regulate the charge to the batteries.
Most car batteries are properly charged with ONLY the alternator on a very regular cycle to keep them charged up without major charge/discharge cycles.

Calif. Ted · Dec 18, 2008

I just had to replace the factory Delco 6 year battery in my 2001 truck, died on a below freezing night.

Don S/V ILLusion · Dec 18, 2008

I'm not sure there is a big difference between the longevity of car batteries compared with properly maintained deep cycle batteries. In either case, if they are severely discharged, their longevity is cut short regardless of what one perceives. If someone receives 6-8 years from an abused battery, it is certain it could have lasted much longer had it not been abused.
About the only distinction between the two I can conceive of has more to do with the variability of boater's bank type, charging system and use cycle as compared with virtually identical car systems with which car owners typically don't tinker.

Benny · Dec 18, 2008

I had an Interstate battery for 8 years in a 2002 BMW. Is not a riddle, the car was a 1975 model year but the factory model was 2002. I guess heeling a lead acid battery 25 degrees for 10 hours while working refrigeration with no charge doesn't do anything for their working life.

kloudie1 · Dec 19, 2008

Something to think about.. the chemical makeup of the plates on the two different types are very different. The auto ones are formulated for very low water use, but that limits their low cycles to a couple. The deep cycle batts use lots more water but are more tolerant of, well, deep cycles.. Bad chargers, charge plans, and no water maintenance kill them prematurely.

Bill Roosa · Dec 19, 2008

its the cycling that kills them

an auto battery does not cycle much. Suck a start out (15 AH max) and the alternator does the rest. The battery just sits there at full charge 99.44% of the time. It never cycles through a discharge
A boat battery is constantly getting cycled deeply and left in a less than fully charged state.
When I was an auto mechanic in a former life, I replaced plenty of batteries. Almost all of them failed after a deep discharge from either a hard starting event where the starter gave it a workout or a load was left on for a long time. The other most common failure is the regulator going bad and causing either overcharging (dry battery) or no charging which is akin to the deep discharge faill

I gather from this experience that if you can "keep up the charge" through wind/solar/hydro and not deeply discharge your batteries then you will get more life out of them.

sailingdog · Dec 19, 2008

Your car must need a tune up if it requires 15 amp-hours to start...

Mine starts in under five seconds or so...even at 200 amps, that's less than .3 amp-hours.

BTW, the battery does cycle through a discharge, but not the way you're expecting. Most cars have some parasitic loads, for clocks, system memory, remote receivers, etc. These all draw down the battery, a bit each day. The battery also self-discharges a bit each day. Since most car batteries, even the maintenance free ones, are wet-cell chemistry, on a hot summer day, the draw can be as much as 1-2% per day. If you leave the car sitting for a month...it could be down as far as 60% in hot weather.

Deep discharge and failing to re-charge the batteries completely on a regular basis are probably the greatest killers of batteries. Failing to recharge completely the batteries on a regular basis will allow the plates to sulfate... enough sulfate crystals form, and the battery is dead.

Bill Roosa said:
an auto battery does not cycle much. Suck a start out (15 AH max) and the alternator does the rest. The battery just sits there at full charge 99.44% of the time. It never cycles through a discharge
A boat battery is constantly getting cycled deeply and left in a less than fully charged state.
When I was an auto mechanic in a former life, I replaced plenty of batteries. Almost all of them failed after a deep discharge from either a hard starting event where the starter gave it a workout or a load was left on for a long time. The other most common failure is the regulator going bad and causing either overcharging (dry battery) or no charging which is akin to the deep discharge faill

I gather from this experience that if you can "keep up the charge" through wind/solar/hydro and not deeply discharge your batteries then you will get more life out of them.

tommays · Dec 19, 2008

My 03 truck battery lasted 5 years and let me know in a nice way change me OR get stuck

Let me see the small battery in my J24 sat in the POs garage for 3 years and still held a charge ,I had my charger do a desulfate cycle on it and in a full season of running my sailcomp and running lights i took it home one time before a night race just in case

IT is still doing fine but if i may go with a group 27 if i take a longer trip this year

Bill Roosa · Dec 19, 2008

Starting AH

You got me saildog. I sloped my decimal place. I should have said 1.5 AH. That is based on a car that has something like a busted timing chain and the owner keeps trying to start even though that is impossable.
You comment on parisitic loads is valid but that number of AH is not going to drag the bat below 90% charge.
So my opinion is still that what kills batteries is deep cycling. I guess we are in violent agrement

Maine Sail · Dec 19, 2008

Bill Roosa said:
So my opinion is still that what kills batteries is deep cycling.

So my questions are this:

#1 We've been lead to believe that all sailors with cruising boats need to spend hundreds, if not into the 1k+ range, to upgrade our alternators and regulators to "properly" charge our batteries (I specifically DID NOT include dockside shore charged in this statement).

If it is deep cycles that kill them, and not over voltage charging, as car alternators do, then why do soooo many sailors spend huge money on fancy alternators with absorption and float stage features that rarely if ever get used, though absorption does more so than float?

#2 The average sailboat will never see a long enough engine run time, when coastal cruising, to even get to a float stage. It took me 8-10 hours of run time to finally see a float level charge voltage yet autos put out 14.4 to 14.6 steadily day in day out, In my wife's case, with her current car, 130k miles worth of "over voltage charging" and the battery is not cooked?? How on earth can this be?????

That's lot of "dumb" regulation if and if you buy the hype, foisted onto us by the industry, that battery shouldn't have lasted much more than a few weeks......

130k miles figured at an average of 60mph (actually quite an unreasonable average so it would actually be more hours) would take 2166 hours of driving to achieve. In the average sailboat, figuring 100 hours per season on the motor, that would take nearly 22 years to achieve. I've yet to meet any sailor with 22 year old batteries?? Shouldn't there be more??

I know LOTS, and LOTS of sailors who use the engine 60-100 hours per season and who also have a gourmet charging system??? If a cheap, thin plate, car battery can sustain 6 years+ and the equivalent of 2166 hours of run time on 14.4 to 14.6 why can't a deep cycle?

If a car battery can survive with 14.4-14.6 volts for the marine hour equivalent of nearly 22 years of engine use why do we insist on "smart regulators" for our boats when a dumb regulator will work just fine, in most cases, for wet cell batts???

Maine Sail · Dec 19, 2008

Ross said:
Now you are starting to "Get It". Time for Myth Busters to go to work.

Oh I've "got it" for quite a few years.. I went the route of external "smart" regulation, on quite a few boats, multiple times, though before it sunk in.....

Here is a real world scenario:

The boat we own now was cruised as a full time,24/7/365, live aboard, on the hook cruiser for 5+ years. She has a 72 amp factory Westerbeke alternator with "dumb" regulation. But......but........there's just NO WAY?????

Balmar says..........

The previous owners, friends of ours, got six years and 2700 hours of engine run time, that's 27 years worth of DUMB REGULATION, and a lot more than the average boaters engine will use. They compressed this 2700 hours of dumb regulation into just over 5+ years time, and grab onto something firm, the batteries STILL worked fine when we bought the boat.

The batteries were three group 29/31 12v wet cell batteries and not top shelf Trojan's either. They were Wal*Mart deep cycles. But.... but..... that can't be, Wal*Mart batteries suck?????????

They were still going strong when I bought the boat. I know, it must have been divine intervention??

Personally I think the hype is a little over blown for the amount of run time engines see in coastal cruised sail boats. In all the time I owned my multi-stage regulators I only once, after an eight to ten hour run, saw the volt meter dip to 13.4 volts (float) and then when the auto-pilot reacted it snapped right back up to around 14 volts.

If you leave it plugged in at a dock you should have a multi-stage charger. For general sailing I find that the multi-stage alt regulators stuff is quite a bit of overkill though it took me a while & multiple boats to figure it out for myslef.

Stu Jackson · Dec 19, 2008

Automobile internal regulators are usually set at 13.8 V

so I'm not sure where the 14.6 came from, since I agree, if set there, it'd cook the batteries.

This is a very appropriate place for Maine Sail to remind us that stock alternators with internal regulation can work in a boating environment if matched with a proper smart shorepower charger. Another way to say this is:

"Helpful Hints: Electrical Systems: For extended cruises for those with OEM stock alternators and no external regulation, there is inherently a steadily diminishing law of return in battery charging even if you motor a lot everyday. If you do an energy budget, even if you motor for eight hours a day, you will be drawing down your batteries, regardless of how much you’ve increased your house bank. You WILL need to stop and plug in every week or so. Do the math. If you really want to stay out “forever,” add solar and a new high(er) output alternator and smart regulator. We minimized use of electric lights with our lamp oil trawler cabin light and lamp oil anchor light hooked onto our Garhauer dinghy davit, but most of the energy use is from the fridge. With our large 360 amp hour house battery bank and a separate reserve battery, we were very comfortable being out in two different situations. The first was for a few days without motoring or plugging in. We turned off the fridge at night, so we only used 30 to 40 amp hours a day and could go three or four days without running the engine. The second was knowing we’d be motoring for at least five hours or plugging in at a marina. So, before you go, make sure your electrical system is up to snuff so you can really relax and enjoy the peace and quiet without having to worry about your boat systems."

This was with a stock alternator with an Auto Mac. Tapering charges from stock alternators with internally or externally mounted constant voltage regulators will simply output less amps than an externally regulated three stage charger. Eventually, without solar or other input methods, plugging in will have to occur to bring the banks back to a full charge, which could take as long as 24 hours.

Lotsa different ways to skin the cat.

Maine Sail · Dec 19, 2008

Stu Jackson said:
so I'm not sure where the 14.6 came from, since I agree, if set there, it'd cook the batteries.

This is a very appropriate place for Maine Sail to remind us that stock alternators with internal regulation can work in a boating environment if matched with a proper smart shorepower charger. Another way to say this is:

"Helpful Hints: Electrical Systems: For extended cruises for those with OEM stock alternators and no external regulation, there is inherently a steadily diminishing law of return in battery charging even if you motor a lot everyday. If you do an energy budget, even if you motor for eight hours a day, you will be drawing down your batteries, regardless of how much you’ve increased your house bank. You WILL need to stop and plug in every week or so. Do the math. If you really want to stay out “forever,” add solar and a new high(er) output alternator and smart regulator. We minimized use of electric lights with our lamp oil trawler cabin light and lamp oil anchor light hooked onto our Garhauer dinghy davit, but most of the energy use is from the fridge. With our large 360 amp hour house battery bank and a separate reserve battery, we were very comfortable being out in two different situations. The first was for a few days without motoring or plugging in. We turned off the fridge at night, so we only used 30 to 40 amp hours a day and could go three or four days without running the engine. The second was knowing we’d be motoring for at least five hours or plugging in at a marina. So, before you go, make sure your electrical system is up to snuff so you can really relax and enjoy the peace and quiet without having to worry about your boat systems."

This was with a stock alternator with an Auto Mac. Tapering charges from stock alternators with internally or externally mounted constant voltage regulators will simply output less amps than an externally regulated three stage charger. Eventually, without solar or other input methods, plugging in will have to occur to bring the banks back to a full charge, which could take as long as 24 hours.

Lotsa different ways to skin the cat.

And measured charge times on my Catalina 36 varied by about ten minutes from 50% to 90% charge. I was fortunate or unfortunate enough to have a couple of Balmar regulators fail me. When they failed I replaced them temporarily with the stock regulator. It was only then that I decided to actually monitor the amp output of the stock regulator vs. the Balmar. At 50% bank depletion the Balmar put out about 5-10% more amps than did the stock regulator and kept this up for about twenty minutes or so. By twenty minutes or run time the stock and Balmar regulators put out very similar amps.

After having multiple failures of Balmar regulators, this was known issue, and doing some side by side comparisons, I diecided to keep the stock regulator in place and not replace it with the Balmar. In theory and for long distance voyaging they make good sense but for the coastal cruiser I find it to be an unecessary expense if you have a properly sized alternator for your bank. For me a ten minute difference from 50% to 90% of charge capacity is not much improvement for the $600.00 plus dollars..

Battery acceptance plays a MUCH larger role in charging than the Balmar folks lead you to believe. Force too much in and the regulator backs off on temp to where a stock regulator would be anyway. Please don't get me wrong I do not dislike external regulation and if leaving for extended off shore work I would add it but for the type of sailing most on this board do, and as I currently do, coastal hops of up to a few weeks, there is no need that I have been able to find provided you have a properly sized bank and alternator. A 35 amp alternator on a 450ah bank is not going to work no matter how you cut it but our 72 amp on our 240ah bank works just fine without an external regulator..

If it makes you feel comfortable then by all means spend the money!! Having a certain level of comfort on your boat is a very important aspect of boat ownership!

Had I not had one fail me and had the opportunity to compare notes I'd still be using an external regulator today..

Stu Jackson · Dec 19, 2008

I do remember your earlier input on this subject

and agree on the acceptance issue. Here's a long two page thread I may have linked to recently in another thread here. Check out both pages. Your personal experience with both internally and externally regulated alternator regulators is important. Only one thing to add is that a constant voltage regulator, if set at 13.8 V, will never fully charge a battery, it will bring it up to maybe 80% to 90%, and then overcook the turkeys so something, whatever it may be, is required to completely charge the banks properly to completion. I also agree that extended battery life is dependent eventually upon getting the banks charged fully on a reasonably regular basis to avoid sulfation. Equalization, not yet discussed here, is also a regular battery "maintenance" item. So, that still makes different strokes for different folks, as you said about your cruising "style."

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4454.0.html