You do realize that drink holders can hold all sorts of drinks? Even non-alcoholic ones? Even plain water?
Mark
Kiwi skipper dies in winch accident
- Thread starter Captain Larry-DH
- Start date
Mark
It also said this: "The skipper was unresponsive and tightly wound over and around the winch".
I can't picture how this could happen.
Mark
That winch is designed to be operated from the side the buttons are on, not where the person is seated. Operating from the person's side would be winding the drum opposite from normal, and nobody would put the buttons on the other side of the winch. The drink holder wouldn't be in the way of operation, although it does seem like a silly placement in general. Those buttons with the covers down require a precise small area hit to operate (finger size), so a person just randomly falling on it won't set off the winch. However, I don't see how those buttons would work with their cover opened, since that would interfere with the winch and lines.This is a production boat. (boat show)
The switch is pretty damn close. What if someone is sitting next to the winch and leans/falls? And what do you think of the drink holder location?
The problem with the death was a faulty winch - not an electric winch in general. They knew the switch stuck, and had been doing so for some time. In the described situation, where the winch controls were activated with knee presses, a normally operating winch would shut off as soon as the person was pulled the slightest off-balance and their knee left the switch.
It seems some people really dislike electric winches and use any accident to reinforce that opinion. But using the same logic, one would not have a boat with a boom or any loaded blocks, since accidents and deaths by those devices far outnumber those by electric winches.
Mark
I just read the second report linked here. It seems identical to the original report link, but in re-reading it I have even more questions.
The winch had been used prior to raise the dinghy, and the rope was left around the winch. The accident happened when the person was removing the dinghy lift rope from the winch in order to put a halyard on it. It was the dinghy lift, not the halyard that trapped him. The winch is not a self-tailing type, so any line left on it would be loosely sitting on the drum.
My confusion is how removing a loose rope from a winch could trap someone if the winch started. It seems like the winch would just spin, since the rope wasn't tailed, and was being unwrapped in the opposite direction. Also, it seems odd that a block or attachment point on the dinghy lift system didn't blow as the dinghy got winched past them.
My other question is the article states that once the crew got the winch to stop, the body was so tightly wound up that they couldn't free it. However, the winch randomly activated without warning again and that caused the person to be released. So the winch wound him in to the point he couldn't be released, then it wound again and released him?
Mark
The winch had been used prior to raise the dinghy, and the rope was left around the winch. The accident happened when the person was removing the dinghy lift rope from the winch in order to put a halyard on it. It was the dinghy lift, not the halyard that trapped him. The winch is not a self-tailing type, so any line left on it would be loosely sitting on the drum.
My confusion is how removing a loose rope from a winch could trap someone if the winch started. It seems like the winch would just spin, since the rope wasn't tailed, and was being unwrapped in the opposite direction. Also, it seems odd that a block or attachment point on the dinghy lift system didn't blow as the dinghy got winched past them.
My other question is the article states that once the crew got the winch to stop, the body was so tightly wound up that they couldn't free it. However, the winch randomly activated without warning again and that caused the person to be released. So the winch wound him in to the point he couldn't be released, then it wound again and released him?
Mark
It does leave more questions than answers. The MAIB’s reports are usually excellently detailed with full root cause analysis, so hopefully they’ll go beyond the preliminary report to a more thorough review and explanation.
Without more details this strikes me as an example of the quote “if it’s In the news, don't worry about it, because by definition, news is something that almost never happens.” (Bruce Schneier)
Therein lies the actual problem. While it’s easy to blame an inanimate object like a winch, it’s the operator who is responsible for using it safely. Not the tool or the button which turns it on. If the captain is drinking alcohol, while underway, regardless of whether it results in an accident, he is the problem.
The assumption he is drinking liquor simply based on the presence of a drink holder is troubling.
Glasses ? TV remotes ? Not even close to a fair comparison. Neither of those creates increased unnecessary risk. Glasses reduces it.
The elderly require retesting for driver licences due to risk of cognitive decline. They tend to give up activities that require agility and strength. All of which are required to run a sailboat.
For those that are younger, relying on increasingly complex gear so you can sail a recreational boat is against the KISS principle. If you can't handle using the powered winches manually if they fail at an inopportune moment (which is when gear fails), you should get a smaller boat, or better winches.
IMO it's better to simply avoid the powered winches all together. A manual winch is never going to drag your whole body into it on its own. It has less points of failure.
Of course this doesn't apply to race boats, and huge boats that require powered winches regardless of crew size/ability.
This guy was in his mid 70s, sailing a big boat that required him to have powered winches, and acquire extra crew (some of which had only been on the boat for a short time, and were of unstated skill).
Apparently he didn't maintain the winches, which is possibly due to cost. Similar to why old wire winches are likely kept in service, in spite of their problems.
Had he been sailing a boat of reasonable size, with its higher safety factor due to decreased maintenance cost, lower rig loads, crew size, etc. he'd be alive today.
Same applies to the couple with the big yacht that died a year ago when the boat gybed. Boat too big. Need to rely on itinerent, and likely in experienced crew. Couple both dead.
I read that post as two different things.. the first sentence joking about booze, and the second sentence about drink holder placement, regardless of beverage ?
Not a fair comparison. Almost every sailboat has a boom and loaded blocks, which is why they are the cause of more accidents.
Powered winches increase risk. Sometimes needlessly. If that can be avoided why not do so ?
All said, It would be interesting to see stats on powered winch incidents.
Stories like this one are sensational so people hear about them. The public don't often hear about people with lesser injuries.
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I've reread the report a fourth time after information had been added to the first report where known information had not been disclosed in the news report.( which is typical of news reports by the way) AsI understood it the offending winch was operated by a push on push off knee switch that had been used to load the dinghy and left on the winch when the dinghy was in place but not actually turned off when the winch apparently stopped moving the line. He probably well understood his mistake microseconds before the winch pulled his arm off while his crew was trying to figure out which button to push to make it stop. Rule #1 don't get between a winch.
It escapes many people that this "KISS principle" is not a rule of owning a boat, nor even a guideline. It is something brought up by people who are judging something they don't have or can't do.
It is a sliding judgement. Manual furlers violate this principle to people who have hank on sails, while electric furlers violate it to people who have manual furlers.
Outside a small daysailor/dinghy, there is almost nobody whose boat complies with the "KISS principle". Well, it does for them, but that's a judgmental bias. Everything else is a sliding scale with no end, nor right or wrong.
Mark
Just to be clear:
I do NOT think electric winches are a bad idea. I can see them in my future. What I do see are devices with inadequate safety engineering, often as a result of poor installation, and no power winch training materials. (If there are such material, please post them.)
I did not mean to imply that a person would operate the winch from a seated position. I do think visual appeal and at-dock comfort trumped safety and function. That is sad.
As for the drink holder, what I was really thinking is that it would likely be mangled by a loop of rope in short order. Even with a manual winch, that is a silly, poorly though out place for a drink (water) holder. Makes it clear that comfort and curb appeal were first in their minds, not function and safety.
It's a guideline for everything. Why complicate matters when the task at hand can be done in a simpler way ?
Of course "simpler" is a sliding judgement. Maybe that simpler way is a stackpack. It might be a furler. Depends on the other factors.
Kiss doesn't mean to sail like the Pardeys did, in today's world. It doesn't mean get a horse. It doesn't mean mandating the accounting department use paper ledgers.It simply means make sure the benefits outweigh the complications and risk factors.
Many people realize that just because they actually can have or do something, doesn't mean they should. Heck, having a few impressive, but needlessly high maintenance vehicles or GFs usually teaches that lesson.
It even applies to my current debate about having a quality espresso maker aboard vs ground coffee, a stainless steel French press with manually foamed milk, or a mocha pot.
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It is not. It may be your guiding principle, but it is not in general a guideline for everything, nor for everyone.
I mean, if you are going to hold to your statement that simpler is a sliding judgement, then that destroys your thesis of KISS being a guideline for everything. In what world is a furler simpler than hanks? It is more convenient, and possibly safer, but those are also the exact qualities of an electric winch over manual.
I know that last sentence is going to cause consternation, but think about it. The convenience can't be denied, and the safety is because one doesn't have to lean out of the cockpit with varying amount of body movement and pressure. I just read an article today on Noonsite where a guy was standing up and leaning over winching in a sheet when he slipped, fell against the coaming, and broke a vertebra. He had to be airlifted to a hospital where he spent 2 weeks in a brace before he was released to a house for another 4 weeks recovery. This would never had happened if he was sitting comfortably on the seat pressing a button.
I don't subscribe to your thesis that if one needs something like an electric winch, they should get a smaller boat. I presume the same goes for you with a windlass? If you can't raise your anchor and chain by hand if the windlass fails, you would get another boat? Why stop there? If you need a winch at all, you should get a smaller boat. Winches are known to break.
BTW, people have died during jibes with small boats. To use a freak accident to say that people should have been on a smaller boat is silly.
Let go of these unexamined biases and realize that all boats are systems of varying complication, for varying reasons, filling varying needs. You know what you want and accept for your boat, but that doesn't project to everyone's boats.
Mark
Sorry, I quoted your post to respond to something specific, then expounded further in general on other points in this thread. I never had the impression you were against electric winches.
Don't know where you are looking, but winch manuals come with detailed instructions on how to install them and how to use them. They are full of warnings about electric winches and what not to do with/around them and what to watch for. I'm not sure what specialized training is needed, since all operation is put the line on the drum and press a button. Check Andersen manuals for some good stuff here, but they all have this.
Regarding loads and automatic shutdowns that were discussed earlier, I checked our winch manual today, and the first gear shuts down at 315kg of load. Higher load is what second gear is for, which takes it to 1300kg. For sure, our winch in first gear will shut down before damaging any other gear (I've tested this many times in operation), and I also think it will shut down before doing significant bodily damage beyond bruises and broken fingers. I don't plan to test that.
Mark
Power equipment always has the potential to be dangerous. For example,
Yale student asphyxiated in lathe accident at chemistry lab,
Yale student asphyxiated in lathe accident at chemistry lab,
Good points, but I'm pretty sure this is quite wrong. 2600 pounds plus a sawing and twisting motion (your arms is going in circles!) will pretty much take things off and tear every tendon loose. I doubt the force in these accidents were any greater than that.
The only safety measure that makes any sense is not getting clothing or body parts near the entrapment zone. I can deal with that, but can everyone? It will be interesting to see how this evolves. I can think of many bit of dangerous equipment in a recreational environment. Some we accept, some not.
Winches and lines can be dangerous with or without electric motors if you add in wind pressure on sails and lines. I've had to remind myself to not be careless and get a finger caught. And I've had the fun of experiencing a stuck control switch with my electric windlass (another one to watch out for!). I knew the remote switch was occasionally sticking in the On position, such that I had to bang the remote to make it stop, but I balked at the high price of a new one--until the day that, out of the blue, the windlass started dumping the anchor rode while I was underway and back at the helm. Promptly bought a new remote, which now seemed quite inexpensive!
Our winch cuts off at 693lbs, not 2600lbs. This is first gear, which is what is used 99% of the time. Second gear is used when the load gets higher, but is much slower also and harder to get trapped in. For a halyard, first gear is all that is used. For a loaded sheet in second gear, the winch is only used to pull in inches at a time.
My point is many electric winches sold now have trip point protection. I don't know if all of them do like our Harkens, but the winch in the accident is very old and AFAIK hasn't been manufactured in ages, and no other winches like it are being manufactured now. In fact, I've never seen one like this.
If you look at the pictures, it doesn't even look like that winch has accommodations for a winch handle. I suspect it was cobbled together from a capstan used to haul fishing nets or the like, and not a purpose made sailboat winch. A lot of projection on electric winches in general is being done by this one example of what appears to be an "electric winch" in name only.
The main thing to remember is this accident was caused by a known problem with the switch sticking on. It's like if they had a sheet chafed halfway through, knowingly continuing to use it, then having an injury/death when it released and clocked someone in the head.
Mark
Your windlass experience is relevant here. I'd venture that far more people and gear have been damaged with electric windlasses than with electric winches. Yet nobody rails against having electric windlasses on a boat, nor bemoan that they don't come with detailed operating instructions, nor point out how some boat manufacturers have installed them in questionable places/orientations, etc.
BTW, we've also had a stuck windlass switch problem. Most windlass switches are nothing but very cheap snap switches. I've replaced with identical snap switches that cost <$1. This is made worse by the switches usually being mounted in wet places, and the remotes being somewhat cheaply made wrt waterproofing. These switches are one of my routine inspection points.
We had an old Simpson Lawrence windlass once that used switches that switched the full current and not a solenoid. These were massive copper contacts on a large spring. While they would regularly refuse to work until I disassembled them and cleaned up the contacts, they could never stick closed.
Mark