Rudder Removal

[james2034]

Hi Jim,

I feel your pain. I was in exactly your position when I first took the job on. It took a friend and me a couple of days, working on and off it, to get the pin free of the tiller arm.

Once the screws are removed, soak the pin in penetrating oil often.

Use a combination of puller tools (you can often rent them at an auto parts store), the biggest pry bars you can find, and (what finally got it to free for me) a portable press kit from Harbor Freight:
https://www.harborfreight.com/4-ton-portable-hydraulic-equipment-kit-58204.html

I was able to separate the tiller assembly halves enough with the pry bars and puller tools to insert the expanding jaws of the portable press between the tiller halves. From there, we worked the pry bars and press slowly on each side in order to fully separate the halves from the pin.

The pin was demolished by the time we were through. I had a machine shop make me a new pin that is a few .001’s smaller in diameter out of 316 SS. I keep it well lubed with waterproof grease and the pin easily slides out now when I drop the rudder to inspect it.

Good luck!

Thanks
I'll keep soaking it over the next week. I'll buy the press and work the problem as you recommended.
I'll let you know next week how it goes.
Jim

 

[American_Mainsail]

Thanks
I'll keep soaking it over the next week. I'll buy the press and work the problem as you recommended.
I'll let you know next week how it goes.
Jim

Hi Jim - another, basic thought I had last night that I thought I would pass on. I'm not sure if you've had any luck getting the tiller assembly separated at all. If you haven't, it can be difficult to find a large pry bar that will fit between the halves to get any purchase. You may already know this, but you can easily extend a small pry (even a screwdriver) with a piece of 1"-2" diameter conduit; four or more feet in length.

If you can find anything at all that will fit between the halves of the tiller assembly, you can slide your conduit "cheater bar" over your pry tool to greatly increase your lever length and subsequent prying force.

I wouldn't worry too much about galling/damaging the faces of the tiller halves by prying/pounding on them. They don't mate to anything. The most important thing is getting that pin off. Pounding (or pressing with a puller tool and an impact wrench) on the pin itself can also be beneficial to start to get the halves separated enough to get a larger pry between them.

Good luck!
Geoff

 

[smokey73]

I have a "radial" rather than a quadrant like yours, but I called the manufacturer and they suggested drilling small (1/8 inch) holes from the top along the line of the pin all the way down to the pin and then soaking the holes with something like PB blaster. Don't worry if you get into the pin when drilling since you will most likely be replacing the pin anyway. They said the small holes will not compromise the strength of the quadrant but I'd call them anyway just to confirm the information is correct. With the fiberglass shaft, I'd be worried about applying any heat.

It was a bear getting ours out but we used a saws-all to cut out a section of the pin inside the quadrant "hole" and then used a hydraulic "spreader" tool to push the pin out both directions. After you cut it make sure to remove any burrs that might have been left from the saws-all so they don't score the inside of the quadrant pin holes.

Hope my description is clear for you. If not I'll draw a little sketch and send it on as an attachment.

 

[james2034]

I have a "radial" rather than a quadrant like yours, but I called the manufacturer and they suggested drilling small (1/8 inch) holes from the top along the line of the pin all the way down to the pin and then soaking the holes with something like PB blaster. Don't worry if you get into the pin when drilling since you will most likely be replacing the pin anyway. They said the small holes will not compromise the strength of the quadrant but I'd call them anyway just to confirm the information is correct. With the fiberglass shaft, I'd be worried about applying any heat.

It was a bear getting ours out but we used a saws-all to cut out a section of the pin inside the quadrant "hole" and then used a hydraulic "spreader" tool to push the pin out both directions. After you cut it make sure to remove any burrs that might have been left from the saws-all so they don't score the inside of the quadrant pin holes.

Hope my description is clear for you. If not I'll draw a little sketch and send it on as an attachment.

Thank you. Great help

 

[American_Mainsail]

@james2034

How are things going?

 

[james2034]

Mine came to me through Hunter as it was a warranty replacement. And the bearings came to me through them as well. But I’ve known several people who obtained rudder through Foss. One on a Hunter 460, sister ship to me, and same design set as you, got his through Sailors Wharf (they installed) in Tampa Bay. And others, Foss has been around a long time. I’ve never heard negative on them…except price maybe? But welcome to yachting. Right? The only other way I might go if you are technically competent or know someone you trust who is a skilled craftsman in fiberglass…if your present rudder is stainless, the frame is in “great” shape, could be to rebuild. But there is a lot to be cognizant of. It’s foam core, light weight, water resistant, won’t degrade “when” water gets in…as it will in time. Most notably at the point of exit where Stainless comes out at top…stainless and fiberglass expand/contract at different rates, so they will let go of each other and allow water in. Also, to understand stress as if the rudder flexes on the stainless grid then you get hairline cracks in gelcoat and there you go.

Honestly. I can’t believe the number of boats out there running on really old rudders. So they are probably better than I give them credit for. But I’m a conservative guy in safety. So integrity of hull, rig, engine (shaft log) and rudder stand in the same room as safety in preparation, knowledge, planning, and seaman like behaviors sailing with spirit, but not so as to break the boat.

okay, I’ll get off my soap box.

Glad to help.

tim

Thank you. Your advice well taken

 

[james2034]

Hi Jim - another, basic thought I had last night that I thought I would pass on. I'm not sure if you've had any luck getting the tiller assembly separated at all. If you haven't, it can be difficult to find a large pry bar that will fit between the halves to get any purchase. You may already know this, but you can easily extend a small pry (even a screwdriver) with a piece of 1"-2" diameter conduit; four or more feet in length.

If you can find anything at all that will fit between the halves of the tiller assembly, you can slide your conduit "cheater bar" over your pry tool to greatly increase your lever length and subsequent prying force.

I wouldn't worry too much about galling/damaging the faces of the tiller halves by prying/pounding on them. They don't mate to anything. The most important thing is getting that pin off. Pounding (or pressing with a puller tool and an impact wrench) on the pin itself can also be beneficial to start to get the halves separated enough to get a larger pry between them.

Good luck!
Geoff

thank you

 

[james2034]

Thank you to all who provided excellent information and help with rudder removal and measurements. After many long hours of trying to remove the pin and bolts from the rudder quadrant, I finally was able to get the 2 halves apart . The pin would not come out of one side and one bolt broke off. I ground the pin down about 3 inches from the end and was able to remove it. The bolt had to be drilled out. (That was the easiest part). Ill get a new pin made, either but a thread insert or tap the hole for a bigger bolt, clean up the quadrant and be ready for the new rudder. I was able to drop the rudder with no problem. I believe that I found a crack around the back of the rudder post that probably leaked and caused my rudder to deform.
I couldn't have done it without the advice from all of you. I especially want to than Jim and John for a long phone call that provided ideas to solve many of my challenges. American Mainsail's tutorial and instructions were invaluable.Thank you Smokey73, CrusinSpirit, and Artboas for your innovative ideas that were a great help.
Thank you all.
I will be receiving the new rudder by the end of the month. Ill post how it goes.
Jim
"Falcon"

 

[james2034]

Hi James,

I understand that the rudder configuration is very similar to my boat (a 44AC). It's pretty simple to remove the rudder, as long as the stainless safety pin isn't seized into the aluminum tiller block. If you have a shoal draft keel, you'll want the boat blocked fairly high. From memory, I would say around 18" of block under the keel. If you have the standard draft, just a normal block arrangement should work.

The floor behind the helm comes up with six, Phillips-head screws. There's four in the area that you stand behind the helm that face upward and two that are oriented horizontally at the back of the cover. In order to get to the two, horizontal screws, I need to pick up the tilting transom seat/door. It's likely the same for your boat.

After your remove the cover, it will look similar to this:
View attachment 226583

My rudder post is GRP. Yours will certainly look differently.

The black chunk of aluminum is the tiller assembly. It clamps to the rudder stock with four, allen-key, stainless steel machine screws. A stainless steel safety pin inserts through the center of the tiller and rudder stock as a backup to the clamping system.

From right to left, the appurtenances that attach to the tiller asssembly are: the main steering link, the autopilot tiller angle sensor, and the autopilot ram arm.

It's wise to try to remove the pin first before removing the four clamping bolts. Run a line that will fit in your genoa winches from the port side winch, underneath the bottom of the rudder blade, and to the starboard winch. Tension the line to take up the weight of the rudder. Make sure you use a line that's thick enough to work in the winch self-tailers.

View attachment 226587

The first time I removed my rudder, the stainless pin was seized into the aluminum tiller and it was an absolute bear that took a big fight with pry bars and press tools to get it off. I had a new pin made that has a detent in either end to give the press something to engage with.

Press Tool (this isn't the exact one I used - I would recommend taking some measurements and/or consider renting one from an auto parts store as a part of their tool rental program. This is often times free.)

View attachment 226584

Here's a shot of the back of the tiller assembly. Not that I would NOT use this kind of seizing split pin again. Use a stainless cotter pin that you would use to seize rigging turnbuckles.
View attachment 226585

This is a shot from this spring, the second time I removed the rudder (I remove it for inspection every time the boat is on the hard). Since I keep the pin greased, it removes from the tiller easily with a drift punch and some light tapping. The pin system is great, simple, and secure when the pin is kept greased.

View attachment 226586

After the pin is removed, double check your lines that are holding the rudder up are secure and tensioned. Remove the four clamping screws. You'll be able to remove the rear part of the tiller (shaped like a half moon).

Now you can use your lines that are sheeted on the port and starboard winches to slowly lower the rudder down.

Voila. You have your rudder out.

Reassembly is essentially the same procedure. I would recommend that you install the stainless rudder pin first, before installing the four clamping screws. Make sure that you grease the rudder pin with a heavy duty, waterproof grease before installing it. On the clamping machine screws, I use blue Loctite on the threads to keep them secure and fight off corrosion. This has worked very well for me.

While you have the helm floor up, it's a good chance to grease the steering link and autopilot ram connections, and give the whole area a cleaning and waxing. Stuff builds up down there fast since the whole cockpit drains to this area. You'll probably find a few things that disappeared!

To seal the helm floor, I would recommend using butyl tape. It's a perfect application for this area since it's reusable and can bridge large gaps.

Good luck!
Geoff

I used your tutorial many times. It was invaluable. Thanks

 

[American_Mainsail]

I used your tutorial many times. It was invaluable. Thanks

Happy that we helped!

 

[Waimanalo]

I have to remove my rudder on my hunter 380 1999 for delamination repair, it look very similar of your
How long is the shaft just to be shure i have enough space to under the rudder to let it down?

 

[American_Mainsail]

I have to remove my rudder on my hunter 380 1999 for delamination repair, it look very similar of your
How long is the shaft just to be shure i have enough space to under the rudder to let it down?

The shaft length can be estimated by measuring from the base of the rudder to the floor of the cockpit. You can’t measure this directly, but you can make reasonable estimates.

I have been able to remove the rudder without clearing the shaft from the tube all the way by angling it out. Generally speaking, the more space you have, the better.