Rudder Removal

[james2034]

I have a 2005 Hunter 41AC.
I am having a new rudder built with stainless post.
Does anyone have experience with rudder removal on the 41s or directions where to find schematic/ instructions for removal and replacement.

 

[kappykaplan]

Calling @JamesG161 . . .

 

[JamesG161]

I am having a new rudder built with stainless post.

Who built your new Rudder?

Jim...

 

[smokey73]

Hoping it was Foss Foam in Florida? Don't know about the 41 but I replaced my rudder with a rebuilt one from Foss Foam and they were great. I have experience as does @JamesG161. Do you have a picture of your setup under the removable deck behind the steering pedestal?

 

[American_Mainsail]

Hi James,

I understand that the rudder configuration is very similar to my boat (a 44AC). It's pretty simple to remove the rudder, as long as the stainless safety pin isn't seized into the aluminum tiller block. If you have a shoal draft keel, you'll want the boat blocked fairly high. From memory, I would say around 18" of block under the keel. If you have the standard draft, just a normal block arrangement should work.

The floor behind the helm comes up with six, Phillips-head screws. There's four in the area that you stand behind the helm that face upward and two that are oriented horizontally at the back of the cover. In order to get to the two, horizontal screws, I need to pick up the tilting transom seat/door. It's likely the same for your boat.

After your remove the cover, it will look similar to this:

My rudder post is GRP. Yours will certainly look differently.

The black chunk of aluminum is the tiller assembly. It clamps to the rudder stock with four, allen-key, stainless steel machine screws. A stainless steel safety pin inserts through the center of the tiller and rudder stock as a backup to the clamping system.

From right to left, the appurtenances that attach to the tiller asssembly are: the main steering link, the autopilot tiller angle sensor, and the autopilot ram arm.

It's wise to try to remove the pin first before removing the four clamping bolts. Run a line that will fit in your genoa winches from the port side winch, underneath the bottom of the rudder blade, and to the starboard winch. Tension the line to take up the weight of the rudder. Make sure you use a line that's thick enough to work in the winch self-tailers.

The first time I removed my rudder, the stainless pin was seized into the aluminum tiller and it was an absolute bear that took a big fight with pry bars and press tools to get it off. I had a new pin made that has a detent in either end to give the press something to engage with.

Press Tool (this isn't the exact one I used - I would recommend taking some measurements and/or consider renting one from an auto parts store as a part of their tool rental program. This is often times free.)

Here's a shot of the back of the tiller assembly. Not that I would NOT use this kind of seizing split pin again. Use a stainless cotter pin that you would use to seize rigging turnbuckles.

This is a shot from this spring, the second time I removed the rudder (I remove it for inspection every time the boat is on the hard). Since I keep the pin greased, it removes from the tiller easily with a drift punch and some light tapping. The pin system is great, simple, and secure when the pin is kept greased.

After the pin is removed, double check your lines that are holding the rudder up are secure and tensioned. Remove the four clamping screws. You'll be able to remove the rear part of the tiller (shaped like a half moon).

Now you can use your lines that are sheeted on the port and starboard winches to slowly lower the rudder down.

Voila. You have your rudder out.

Reassembly is essentially the same procedure. I would recommend that you install the stainless rudder pin first, before installing the four clamping screws. Make sure that you grease the rudder pin with a heavy duty, waterproof grease before installing it. On the clamping machine screws, I use blue Loctite on the threads to keep them secure and fight off corrosion. This has worked very well for me.

While you have the helm floor up, it's a good chance to grease the steering link and autopilot ram connections, and give the whole area a cleaning and waxing. Stuff builds up down there fast since the whole cockpit drains to this area. You'll probably find a few things that disappeared!

To seal the helm floor, I would recommend using butyl tape. It's a perfect application for this area since it's reusable and can bridge large gaps.

Good luck!
Geoff

 

[Cruising Spirit]

That was an excellent reply by Geoff.

I would add you contemplate replacing the nylon bearings which mount against the ID of the rudder post “tube” and OD of the new rudder post. In fact, if you are converting from fiberglass post to stainless steel, you will have to. OD of fiberglass post is much larger and the difference is consumed by the stainless post being way oversized and the bearings being much thicker. The OD of the nylon bearings is your critical reference when obtaining replacement bearings (which are really just bushings with flanges on outer ends (top and bottom—each is outward). Then the fun part! Get dry ice and deposit inside the bushings to shrink the nylon (use tape so ice doesn’t fall through). They slip right out. Do the same with the new ones shrinking them to slide in. The ID of the bushings is determined by OD of new rudder post through manufacturer. Use Tef-gel or anti sieze when assembling the aluminum/stainless bits. But also, those screws holding deck plate down need sealant (butyl tape is a great idea) where they go into the sub-deck. If not, you will have small leaks into cabins below. I modified mine so I could remove it without breaking seal as I liked to clean there several times a year and inspect. You have to secure it somehow or it will vibrate at various RPM. Good luck? Tim

 

[james2034]

Who built your new Rudder?

Jim...

Rudder Craft from Idaho

 

[james2034]

Hi James,

I understand that the rudder configuration is very similar to my boat (a 44AC). It's pretty simple to remove the rudder, as long as the stainless safety pin isn't seized into the aluminum tiller block. If you have a shoal draft keel, you'll want the boat blocked fairly high. From memory, I would say around 18" of block under the keel. If you have the standard draft, just a normal block arrangement should work.

The floor behind the helm comes up with six, Phillips-head screws. There's four in the area that you stand behind the helm that face upward and two that are oriented horizontally at the back of the cover. In order to get to the two, horizontal screws, I need to pick up the tilting transom seat/door. It's likely the same for your boat.

After your remove the cover, it will look similar to this:
View attachment 226583

My rudder post is GRP. Yours will certainly look differently.

The black chunk of aluminum is the tiller assembly. It clamps to the rudder stock with four, allen-key, stainless steel machine screws. A stainless steel safety pin inserts through the center of the tiller and rudder stock as a backup to the clamping system.

From right to left, the appurtenances that attach to the tiller asssembly are: the main steering link, the autopilot tiller angle sensor, and the autopilot ram arm.

It's wise to try to remove the pin first before removing the four clamping bolts. Run a line that will fit in your genoa winches from the port side winch, underneath the bottom of the rudder blade, and to the starboard winch. Tension the line to take up the weight of the rudder. Make sure you use a line that's thick enough to work in the winch self-tailers.

View attachment 226587

The first time I removed my rudder, the stainless pin was seized into the aluminum tiller and it was an absolute bear that took a big fight with pry bars and press tools to get it off. I had a new pin made that has a detent in either end to give the press something to engage with.

Press Tool (this isn't the exact one I used - I would recommend taking some measurements and/or consider renting one from an auto parts store as a part of their tool rental program. This is often times free.)

View attachment 226584

Here's a shot of the back of the tiller assembly. Not that I would NOT use this kind of seizing split pin again. Use a stainless cotter pin that you would use to seize rigging turnbuckles.
View attachment 226585

This is a shot from this spring, the second time I removed the rudder (I remove it for inspection every time the boat is on the hard). Since I keep the pin greased, it removes from the tiller easily with a drift punch and some light tapping. The pin system is great, simple, and secure when the pin is kept greased.

View attachment 226586

After the pin is removed, double check your lines that are holding the rudder up are secure and tensioned. Remove the four clamping screws. You'll be able to remove the rear part of the tiller (shaped like a half moon).

Now you can use your lines that are sheeted on the port and starboard winches to slowly lower the rudder down.

Voila. You have your rudder out.

Reassembly is essentially the same procedure. I would recommend that you install the stainless rudder pin first, before installing the four clamping screws. Make sure that you grease the rudder pin with a heavy duty, waterproof grease before installing it. On the clamping machine screws, I use blue Loctite on the threads to keep them secure and fight off corrosion. This has worked very well for me.

While you have the helm floor up, it's a good chance to grease the steering link and autopilot ram connections, and give the whole area a cleaning and waxing. Stuff builds up down there fast since the whole cockpit drains to this area. You'll probably find a few things that disappeared!

To seal the helm floor, I would recommend using butyl tape. It's a perfect application for this area since it's reusable and can bridge large gaps.

Good luck!
Geoff

GEOFF
Thank you for your comprehensive reply and excellent advise. Your pictures are just like my setup. I am currently away and won't be working on Falcon until early Oct. I see no big problems after your posts.
Thanks again.
Jim
Falcon
B

 

[james2034]

in

Hoping it was Foss Foam in Florida? Don't know about the 41 but I replaced my rudder with a rebuilt one from Foss Foam and they were great. I have experience as does @JamesG161. Do you have a picture of your setup under the removable deck behind the steering pedestal?

Thanks for your reply.
I'm away for the summer and have no pics. Sorry. I'll start work early Oct.
Jim

 

[james2034]

That was an excellent reply by Geoff.

I would add you contemplate replacing the nylon bearings which mount against the ID of the rudder post “tube” and OD of the new rudder post. In fact, if you are converting from fiberglass post to stainless steel, you will have to. OD of fiberglass post is much larger and the difference is consumed by the stainless post being way oversized and the bearings being much thicker. The OD of the nylon bearings is your critical reference when obtaining replacement bearings (which are really just bushings with flanges on outer ends (top and bottom—each is outward). Then the fun part! Get dry ice and deposit inside the bushings to shrink the nylon (use tape so ice doesn’t fall through). They slip right out. Do the same with the new ones shrinking them to slide in. The ID of the bushings is determined by OD of new rudder post through manufacturer. Use Tef-gel or anti sieze when assembling the aluminum/stainless bits. But also, those screws holding deck plate down need sealant (butyl tape is a great idea) where they go into the sub-deck. If not, you will have small leaks into cabins below. I modified mine so I could remove it without breaking seal as I liked to clean there several times a year and inspect. You have to secure it somehow or it will vibrate at various RPM. Good luck? Tim

Thanks you
I will definitely take your advise
Jim

 

[American_Mainsail]

No problem, Jim. Best of luck and let us know if you have any issues.

 

[Cruising Spirit]

Mine came to me through Hunter as it was a warranty replacement. And the bearings came to me through them as well. But I’ve known several people who obtained rudder through Foss. One on a Hunter 460, sister ship to me, and same design set as you, got his through Sailors Wharf (they installed) in Tampa Bay. And others, Foss has been around a long time. I’ve never heard negative on them…except price maybe? But welcome to yachting. Right? The only other way I might go if you are technically competent or know someone you trust who is a skilled craftsman in fiberglass…if your present rudder is stainless, the frame is in “great” shape, could be to rebuild. But there is a lot to be cognizant of. It’s foam core, light weight, water resistant, won’t degrade “when” water gets in…as it will in time. Most notably at the point of exit where Stainless comes out at top…stainless and fiberglass expand/contract at different rates, so they will let go of each other and allow water in. Also, to understand stress as if the rudder flexes on the stainless grid then you get hairline cracks in gelcoat and there you go.

Honestly. I can’t believe the number of boats out there running on really old rudders. So they are probably better than I give them credit for. But I’m a conservative guy in safety. So integrity of hull, rig, engine (shaft log) and rudder stand in the same room as safety in preparation, knowledge, planning, and seaman like behaviors sailing with spirit, but not so as to break the boat.

okay, I’ll get off my soap box.

Glad to help.

tim

 

[artboas]

A suggestion

On my original 40.5 rudder, water got in, and cracked it.
I had the rudder repaired, and then installed a removable brass drain plug.
Every fall., I pulled the plug and water came out. Left the plug out for the winter.
By doing this, I never had rudder cracks again

 

[james2034]

A suggestion

On my original 40.5 rudder, water got in, and cracked it.
I had the rudder repaired, and then installed a removable brass drain plug.
Every fall., I pulled the plug and water came out. Left the plug out for the winter.
By doing this, I never had rudder cracks again

Thank you.
Great idea.

 

[Cruising Spirit]

That is a very novel idea Artboas! I check the rudder when hauled with a moisture meter. When I think too much (I was never able to find a standard of what is too much) moisture, I drill a few small holes to see if water comes out. Repairing them is easy with epoxy as I’m pretty much doing paint type work when hauled. Sander is at hand.

That you haul every year clues me you are up north. I on the other hand didn’t go north of Key West or Bahamas for many years. Over 9 years outside the states down there in Caribbean. So, the boat was in the water except to apply new bottom paint, tension keel bolts, prop/shaft/zinc, through hulls and rudder. Getting back in water was the goal rather than a winter lay up.

I’ve seen it that more than just my holes, in bad cases, I’ve seen the bottom third of the rudder’s skin pulled/peeled/grinded or cut off to expose lots of foam quickly with heat lamp in tropic air. That way also you can spot check the frame welds digging through the foam. There are cases of the grid coming loose from the rudder post. This becomes more likely with age of rudder, how long water has been in there, and if the manufacturer used welding rod chemically consistent with the grade of the post and the grid stock welded on. Dissimilarity promotes corrosion.

My largest boat, Hunter 460, originally came with fiberglass rudder post. No metal. Hunter replaced it because water had intruded the post and it swole due to chemical reaction (like blisters) and was therefore tight in the bearings. From new, the boat had been in one of their school/demo programs and was refurbished by them in passing it from the school and to the market (me) through a broker after a few years of use. I was able to establish this condition existed when the boat was presented to me. I had not had the opportunity to be the cause of the problem by, for example, striking an underwater object.

Sorry, I do get gabbing.

I’m curious to know what your rudder core is? Problem is wood core rots and foam takes forever to release water. And water delaminates the glass from the foam. But if you were getting cracking from freezing, that’s a different thing.

 

[American_Mainsail]

A suggestion

On my original 40.5 rudder, water got in, and cracked it.
I had the rudder repaired, and then installed a removable brass drain plug.
Every fall., I pulled the plug and water came out. Left the plug out for the winter.
By doing this, I never had rudder cracks again

Hi Art - interesting idea.

Do you have a link handy to the plug that you used?

Thanks!

 

[james2034]

Hi James,

I understand that the rudder configuration is very similar to my boat (a 44AC). It's pretty simple to remove the rudder, as long as the stainless safety pin isn't seized into the aluminum tiller block. If you have a shoal draft keel, you'll want the boat blocked fairly high. From memory, I would say around 18" of block under the keel. If you have the standard draft, just a normal block arrangement should work.

The floor behind the helm comes up with six, Phillips-head screws. There's four in the area that you stand behind the helm that face upward and two that are oriented horizontally at the back of the cover. In order to get to the two, horizontal screws, I need to pick up the tilting transom seat/door. It's likely the same for your boat.

After your remove the cover, it will look similar to this:
View attachment 226583

My rudder post is GRP. Yours will certainly look differently.

The black chunk of aluminum is the tiller assembly. It clamps to the rudder stock with four, allen-key, stainless steel machine screws. A stainless steel safety pin inserts through the center of the tiller and rudder stock as a backup to the clamping system.

From right to left, the appurtenances that attach to the tiller asssembly are: the main steering link, the autopilot tiller angle sensor, and the autopilot ram arm.

It's wise to try to remove the pin first before removing the four clamping bolts. Run a line that will fit in your genoa winches from the port side winch, underneath the bottom of the rudder blade, and to the starboard winch. Tension the line to take up the weight of the rudder. Make sure you use a line that's thick enough to work in the winch self-tailers.

View attachment 226587

The first time I removed my rudder, the stainless pin was seized into the aluminum tiller and it was an absolute bear that took a big fight with pry bars and press tools to get it off. I had a new pin made that has a detent in either end to give the press something to engage with.

Press Tool (this isn't the exact one I used - I would recommend taking some measurements and/or consider renting one from an auto parts store as a part of their tool rental program. This is often times free.)

View attachment 226584

Here's a shot of the back of the tiller assembly. Not that I would NOT use this kind of seizing split pin again. Use a stainless cotter pin that you would use to seize rigging turnbuckles.
View attachment 226585

This is a shot from this spring, the second time I removed the rudder (I remove it for inspection every time the boat is on the hard). Since I keep the pin greased, it removes from the tiller easily with a drift punch and some light tapping. The pin system is great, simple, and secure when the pin is kept greased.

View attachment 226586

After the pin is removed, double check your lines that are holding the rudder up are secure and tensioned. Remove the four clamping screws. You'll be able to remove the rear part of the tiller (shaped like a half moon).

Now you can use your lines that are sheeted on the port and starboard winches to slowly lower the rudder down.

Voila. You have your rudder out.

Reassembly is essentially the same procedure. I would recommend that you install the stainless rudder pin first, before installing the four clamping screws. Make sure that you grease the rudder pin with a heavy duty, waterproof grease before installing it. On the clamping machine screws, I use blue Loctite on the threads to keep them secure and fight off corrosion. This has worked very well for me.

While you have the helm floor up, it's a good chance to grease the steering link and autopilot ram connections, and give the whole area a cleaning and waxing. Stuff builds up down there fast since the whole cockpit drains to this area. You'll probably find a few things that disappeared!

To seal the helm floor, I would recommend using butyl tape. It's a perfect application for this area since it's reusable and can bridge large gaps.

Good luck!
Geoff

Thank you. I'm going to start removing mine today.
Great advice.

 

[American_Mainsail]

Thank you. I'm going to start removing mine today.
Great advice.

Hoping all goes smoothly!

 

[james2034]

Hi James,

I understand that the rudder configuration is very similar to my boat (a 44AC). It's pretty simple to remove the rudder, as long as the stainless safety pin isn't seized into the aluminum tiller block. If you have a shoal draft keel, you'll want the boat blocked fairly high. From memory, I would say around 18" of block under the keel. If you have the standard draft, just a normal block arrangement should work.

The floor behind the helm comes up with six, Phillips-head screws. There's four in the area that you stand behind the helm that face upward and two that are oriented horizontally at the back of the cover. In order to get to the two, horizontal screws, I need to pick up the tilting transom seat/door. It's likely the same for your boat.

After your remove the cover, it will look similar to this:
View attachment 226583

My rudder post is GRP. Yours will certainly look differently.

The black chunk of aluminum is the tiller assembly. It clamps to the rudder stock with four, allen-key, stainless steel machine screws. A stainless steel safety pin inserts through the center of the tiller and rudder stock as a backup to the clamping system.

From right to left, the appurtenances that attach to the tiller asssembly are: the main steering link, the autopilot tiller angle sensor, and the autopilot ram arm.

It's wise to try to remove the pin first before removing the four clamping bolts. Run a line that will fit in your genoa winches from the port side winch, underneath the bottom of the rudder blade, and to the starboard winch. Tension the line to take up the weight of the rudder. Make sure you use a line that's thick enough to work in the winch self-tailers.

View attachment 226587

The first time I removed my rudder, the stainless pin was seized into the aluminum tiller and it was an absolute bear that took a big fight with pry bars and press tools to get it off. I had a new pin made that has a detent in either end to give the press something to engage with.

Press Tool (this isn't the exact one I used - I would recommend taking some measurements and/or consider renting one from an auto parts store as a part of their tool rental program. This is often times free.)

View attachment 226584

Here's a shot of the back of the tiller assembly. Not that I would NOT use this kind of seizing split pin again. Use a stainless cotter pin that you would use to seize rigging turnbuckles.
View attachment 226585

This is a shot from this spring, the second time I removed the rudder (I remove it for inspection every time the boat is on the hard). Since I keep the pin greased, it removes from the tiller easily with a drift punch and some light tapping. The pin system is great, simple, and secure when the pin is kept greased.

View attachment 226586

After the pin is removed, double check your lines that are holding the rudder up are secure and tensioned. Remove the four clamping screws. You'll be able to remove the rear part of the tiller (shaped like a half moon).

Now you can use your lines that are sheeted on the port and starboard winches to slowly lower the rudder down.

Voila. You have your rudder out.

Reassembly is essentially the same procedure. I would recommend that you install the stainless rudder pin first, before installing the four clamping screws. Make sure that you grease the rudder pin with a heavy duty, waterproof grease before installing it. On the clamping machine screws, I use blue Loctite on the threads to keep them secure and fight off corrosion. This has worked very well for me.

While you have the helm floor up, it's a good chance to grease the steering link and autopilot ram connections, and give the whole area a cleaning and waxing. Stuff builds up down there fast since the whole cockpit drains to this area. You'll probably find a few things that disappeared!

To seal the helm floor, I would recommend using butyl tape. It's a perfect application for this area since it's reusable and can bridge large gaps.

Good luck!
Geoff

Thanks again.
I have tried everything I know to remove the pin. The blade is wedged up so no pressure is on the pin. I have removed the bolts after many tries at the pin and attempted to separate the two halfs of the quadrant. They would not separate. The pin held them together. Any advise on pin removal is appreciated.
Jim

 

[American_Mainsail]

Thanks again.
I have tried everything I know to remove the pin. The blade is wedged up so no pressure is on the pin. I have removed the bolts after many tries at the pin and attempted to separate the two halfs of the quadrant. They would not separate. The pin held them together. Any advise on pin removal is appreciated.
Jim

Hi Jim,

I feel your pain. I was in exactly your position when I first took the job on. It took a friend and me a couple of days, working on and off it, to get the pin free of the tiller arm.

Once the screws are removed, soak the pin in penetrating oil often.

Use a combination of puller tools (you can often rent them at an auto parts store), the biggest pry bars you can find, and (what finally got it to free for me) a portable press kit from Harbor Freight:
https://www.harborfreight.com/4-ton-portable-hydraulic-equipment-kit-58204.html

I was able to separate the tiller assembly halves enough with the pry bars and puller tools to insert the expanding jaws of the portable press between the tiller halves. From there, we worked the pry bars and press slowly on each side in order to fully separate the halves from the pin.

The pin was demolished by the time we were through. I had a machine shop make me a new pin that is a few .001’s smaller in diameter out of 316 SS. I keep it well lubed with waterproof grease and the pin easily slides out now when I drop the rudder to inspect it.

Good luck!