Why is it so hard for me sail downwind?

Aug 8, 2024
16
Siren Siren 17 Lake Ontario
I find that if there isn’t too much wind, it’s much easier to sail in a close haul, whereas if I turn off the wind into a broad reach or even beam reach, the wind seems to die and the boat won’t even move. If there is decent wind, it’s a non-issue. Is it harder to sail downwind when knottage is low?

Thanks!
 
May 17, 2004
5,309
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
I don’t know if harder is the right word, but it is definitely slower. When you’re going upwind your own boat speed adds to the apparent wind speed, and the sails are able to act like wings to generate lift and pull the boat forward. When everything is trimmed right it’s not to difficult to sail at or slightly above the true wind speed in that direction. But when you turn downwind you boat speed subtracts from the apparent wind, and the sails usually only provide drag, not lift. Going dead down wind it’s not really possible to go as fast as the wind, and with most non-sport boat hulls quite a bit slower.

Depending on the wind speed you might find it best to go on a broad reach rather than a dead run. At least that way you can try to keep the jib full and not just shadowed by the main. The compromise is that if your target is dead down wind you’ll need to cover more distance reaching and gybing. Racers have polar diagrams that show them the ideal angles for each wind strength, but when cruising it can be just done by feel too. Also if you don’t have a whisker pole you could consider one; that can help the jib pull much better on a run ands even a very broad reach.
 

BarryL

.
May 21, 2004
1,021
Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409 Mt. Sinai, NY
Hello,

Youare 100%correct. In moderate or light wind it is difficult to sail downwind. If you really want to sail downwind you really need downwind sails like a spinnaker.
as mentioned, sailing downwind is hard because the apparent wind drops quite a bit as you go for a reach to a run. There is no east to overcome that.

Barry
 
Aug 8, 2024
16
Siren Siren 17 Lake Ontario
I don’t know if harder is the right word, but it is definitely slower. When you’re going upwind your own boat speed adds to the apparent wind speed, and the sails are able to act like wings to generate lift and pull the boat forward. When everything is trimmed right it’s not to difficult to sail at or slightly above the true wind speed in that direction. But when you turn downwind you boat speed subtracts from the apparent wind, and the sails usually only provide drag, not lift. Going dead down wind it’s not really possible to go as fast as the wind, and with most non-sport boat hulls quite a bit slower.

Depending on the wind speed you might find it best to go on a broad reach rather than a dead run. At least that way you can try to keep the jib full and not just shadowed by the main. The compromise is that if your target is dead down wind you’ll need to cover more distance reaching and gybing. Racers have polar diagrams that show them the ideal angles for each wind strength, but when cruising it can be just done by feel too. Also if you don’t have a whisker pole you could consider one; that can help the jib pull much better on a run ands even a very broad reach.
Thanks for the clear explanation! It definitely feels slower to sail downwind, but it sometimes feels as if the boat won’t sail at all unless I turn into the wind and tension the sheets. It’s hard to tell. It sounds like more wind is needed to drive the boat on a downwind course. I have a rather small boat (17ft) so there is less sail area overall too. Cheers!
 
Aug 8, 2024
16
Siren Siren 17 Lake Ontario
Hello,

Youare 100%correct. In moderate or light wind it is difficult to sail downwind. If you really want to sail downwind you really need downwind sails like a spinnaker.
as mentioned, sailing downwind is hard because the apparent wind drops quite a bit as you go for a reach to a run. There is no east to overcome that.

Barry
Thanks Barry! That is helpful to know. I find it hard to sail even on a reach when there isn’t much wind. I will look into a spinnaker or maybe whisker pole for the jib.
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
3,617
Belliure 41 Sailing back to the Chesapeake
Be sure you are actually measuring your speed over water. You may be going faster than you think. As soon as the wind starts getting behind you, you feel slower because you are moving with the wind, not against it.

I few years ago, I went for a day sail where in the morning i was running a close hauled leg and was making about 5 knots. It felt fast. A few hours later i turned around and was heading back on a broad reach and it felt like I was going slow. But when I checked my speed i was running about 9 knots.

dj
 
Aug 8, 2024
16
Siren Siren 17 Lake Ontario
Be sure you are actually measuring your speed over water. You may be going faster than you think. As soon as the wind starts getting behind you, you feel slower because you are moving with the wind, not against it.

I few years ago, I went for a day sail where in the morning i was running a close hauled leg and was making about 5 knots. It felt fast. A few hours later i turned around and was heading back on a broad reach and it felt like I was going slow. But when I checked my speed i was running about 9 knots.

dj
Thanks! I don’t have a speedometer on the sailboat, but I know I can’t trust my senses either. Maybe I can find an app for boat speed. You can’t really eyeball it.
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
3,617
Belliure 41 Sailing back to the Chesapeake
Thanks! I don’t have a speedometer on the sailboat, but I know I can’t trust my senses either. Maybe I can find an app for boat speed. You can’t really eyeball it.
Actually, yes you can "eyeball" it. Take something that floats and will biodegrade without an issue - like a small piece of white bread - throw it into the water at your bow and count the seconds it takes to pass your stern. Knowing the length of your boat, you then have X feet per Y seconds and it's a simple matter of doing the math.

dj

p.s. even if you aren't totally accurate - it can be a good comparison. However you find it's easier to execute, do it the same way in both directions. Three or four slices of white bread can keep you entertained for hours - and give the local fish population a treat...
 
Last edited:
  • Helpful
Likes: Will Gilmore
Oct 19, 2017
7,782
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
Thanks! I don’t have a speedometer on the sailboat, but I know I can’t trust my senses either. Maybe I can find an app for boat speed. You can’t really eyeball it.
I was sailing my windmill with my son. He had almost no experience and we were on a lake with the wind strong in spots, and blocked by the shore in others. We had a nice run out, I was on the jib, my son at the tiller. We turned back to sail DDW. My son said, "We lost the wind." He sounded so disappointed.
I said, No, there's plenty of wind, you just can't feel it because we're sailing with it."

He argued that we weren't going anywhere, so there was no wind.

Being on a lake in the North Woods, I pointed to all the pine needles rushing backwards to illustrate how fast we were going. He was still skeptical until we hit a submerged rock with the daggerboard. I went flying, my shin bruised on the twart as I landed in the bow.

My son looked at the huge black and blue knot distorting on my shin and asked, "Did you break your leg?"

"No, it's just bruised, but now do you see how fast we were going?"

-Will
 
  • Wow
Likes: jssailem

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
8,073
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Do you have a sailing instructional book? Now's the time to study up on the nature of true and apparent wind. Remember: True wind data is what we use for navigating, Apparent wind data is what we use to trim our sails.

Downwind sailing will always FEEL slower than sailing to weather. That's because upwind your apparent windspeed is true speed PLUS boat speed. Whereas, going downwind, the boat speed is SUBTRACTED from the true wind.
 
  • Like
Likes: jssailem
Oct 19, 2017
7,782
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
And don't confuse heeling with power. Just because you aren't heeling, doesn't mean you don't have power driving you. Part of the illusion of sailing is the idea that you are going faster when you are heeling more. That is often not true, and heeling too much can reduce the power driving you forward.

Do you have a sailing instructional book? Now's the time to study up on the nature of true and apparent wind.
:plus:

-Will
 
  • Like
Likes: jssailem
Oct 26, 2008
6,173
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Just yesterday Sue and I were sailing in light/variable wind, say 5 to 11 knots with main and 135% genoa. On a broad reach, boat speed was 2 to 4 knots. On a close reach, boat speed was 5 to 6 knots. The point of sail absolutely affects boat speed, particularly in light wind. There is no arguing over perception when you are measuring boat speed.

BTW, when on a broad reach, there was no heeling. When on a close reach, we were heeling even in the lighter wind. In gusts approaching 14 knots, we were easing sheets as apparent wind moved back to increase sail efficiency and to prevent excessive heeling and the resultant helm pressure. It's not an illusion that heeling is associated with speed. In this case, it's a fact. Speed increased with associated heeling. Of course, keeping the boat as flat as possible with an increase in wind speed improves speed, but let's not perpetuate a myth that heeling is slow.
 
Last edited:
Oct 26, 2008
6,173
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
When running we push the head sail off to the right and the main to the left or vice versa trying to capture everything.
"Wing on wing" is truly an acquired taste! In light wind, it is difficult to keep the head sail filled without the aid of a whisker pole. In a strong, wind, keeping the head sail is not so problematic but it also becomes less and less for the faint of heart without a boom preventer!
 

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
21,660
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
My son looked at the huge black and blue knot distorting on my shin and asked, "Did you break your leg?"
"No, it's just bruised, but now do you see how fast we were going?"
It sounds like you took the shot to demonstrate the physics lesson to your son. Speed can kill you if you are not careful.:biggrin:
 
  • Like
Likes: Will Gilmore

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
3,617
Belliure 41 Sailing back to the Chesapeake
Just yesterday Sue and I were sailing in light/variable wind, say 5 to 11 knots with main and 135% genoa. On a broad reach, boat speed was 2 to 4 knots. On a close reach, boat speed was 5 to 6 knots. The point of sail absolutely affects boat speed, particularly in light wind. There is no arguing over perception when you are measuring boat speed.

BTW, when on a broad reach, there was no heeling. When on a close reach, we were heeling even in the lighter wind. In gusts approaching 14 knots, we were easing sheets as apparent wind moved back to increase sail efficiency and to prevent excessive heeling and the resultant helm pressure. It's not an illusion that heeling is associated with speed. In this case, it's a fact. Speed increased with associated heeling. Of course, keeping the boat as flat as possible with an increase in wind speed improves speed, but let's not perpetuate a myth that heeling is slow.
It gets a bit more complicated. It depends upon hull design. Some boats are meant to be healed to gain waterline and hence more speed. Most boats have a "preferred" amount of heal - that depends upon hull design. My boat likes to run fairly flat, if I get her healed beyond her comfort zone, she slows down - measured data. I've had other boats that behave differently.

dj
 
  • Like
Likes: Scott T-Bird

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
3,617
Belliure 41 Sailing back to the Chesapeake
"Wing on wing" is truly an acquired taste! In light wind, it is difficult to keep the head sail filled without the aid of a whisker pole. In a strong, wind, keeping the head sail is not so problematic but it also becomes less and less for the faint of heart without a boom preventer!
Hahaha - for sure! I happen to love running wing on wing. But it does take a lot of practice. I pretty much ran the entire milk run wing on wing. I do have a whisker pole, and I ALWAYS use a preventer unless I'm close hauled - even sometimes then also. I use my preventer even when anchored. It keeps my boom totally stationary.

dj
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,173
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
It gets a bit more complicated. It depends upon hull design.
dj
Yes, actually my point is that it's a bit more complicated. Sometimes I get the feeling that some of us go overboard with the argument that flatter is faster. It depends on a lot of factors! When slightly overpowered and heeling a bit too much, I could sail the boat flatter simply by easing the sheets or pinching into the wind. But that would not be faster. In order to sail flatter and sail faster, I would need to possibly put more weight on the rail (not always possible), or better yet, flatten the sails and/or reduce sail area to get more efficient power from the sails and utilize the best heeling angle based on the hull form.

Maybe that goes without saying, but sometimes I get the feeling that the "flatter is faster" argument gets abused by simplicity.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes: sesmith

higgs

.
Aug 24, 2005
3,672
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
Going downwind a lot of centerboard boats go a bit faster by raising the center board. When day sailing in light winds (all I do now adays) I plan my trip out so that I avoid a downwind leg because it is so slow. Usually, for me, it is a beam reach out and back in. Not a good way to hone skills, but at my age I'm done cruising or racing. I just like a nice relaxing sail.
 
Apr 25, 2024
62
Fuji 32 Bellingham
As others have said, already, sailing upwind feels much faster than it is. Or, sailing off the wind feels slower. There are reasons for this that have nothing to do with how fast the boat is actually moving. Let's say you're sailing in a 10 knot wind. Let's say you are sailing 45 degrees off the wind at 4 knots. That means that you are going 2 kts in the direction of the wind, creating an apparent windspeed of 12 kts. (Not actually because there are other forces at play here, but let's keep it simple.)

So, there you are clipping along with a 12 kt breeze in your face. The wind waves are blowing in more-or-less the opposite direction. Let's say they are moving along at about 6 kts in the direction of the wind. (The actual speed depends on several factors, but again, let's keep it simple.) So, since you are moving 45 degrees to the wind, moving 2 kts in the direction of the wind, that means that you are moving through the waves at 8 knots (the waves, not the water).

So, you have this 12 knot wind blowing through your hair and waves crashing under the hull at about 8 knots. That feels faster than it is. In reality, you are still only moving at 4 kts over the water.

Now, let's turn 90 degrees off the wind so we are sailing 135 degrees off the wind (with a 45 degree tailwind). The feel changes.

Let's imagine that we move at the same speed at this point of sail as we did going upwind - just to illustrate the perception difference. So, we are still moving 4 kts over the water, but on a broad reach. So, instead of making 2 kts in the direction of the wind, we are making 2 kts away from the wind. The apparent wind is therefore 8 kts. (Once again, this isn't what actually happens - it's more complicated, but close enough for the illustration.) Also, the waves are still going along at 6 kts but now we are also moving at 2 kts in that direction, meaning we are running over the waves at an apparent 4 kts.

In both cases, our actual speed is still exactly 4 kts, but the upwind leg feels much faster. The more downwind you point, the more pronounced the effect is.

In fact, if you are sailing DDW or nearly so, in a wind that is in the ballpark of the hull speed of your boat, it will feel as if the wind has stopped and, likely, it won't feel as if you are moving through the water. Yet, if you look closely at the bubbles in the water, you will see that you are moving along at a few knots. Conversely, it is possible to point upwind and feel as if you are clipping along, yet hardly be moving at all. It is important to separate perception from actual movement.

Now, with that said, if you REALLY aren't moving, you might not be trimmed for the conditions. When you are talking about light winds, I'll make an assumption and say you are talking about speeds under maybe 7-8 kts. Most boats should make progress at all points of sail in such winds, if trimmed appropriately. As you get closer to 5 kts or so, some boats really can be hard to keep moving forward. Sometimes this has more to do with simply having enough force on the sails to have them hold shape and position. And it isn't necessarily that the boat won't move, but that it is hard to keep pointed in the direct you want to move with the sails full.

My boat, for example, will sail in such light winds at all points, but I don't like to sail in winds under 10 kts, and pretty much lack the patience when winds get down to 5 kts to sail anything too far from a beam reach. My previous boat (much lighter with more relative sail area) did better in light winds.

Now, your boat should do fine in relatively light winds. You have a good sail area to weight ratio. But, you are sailing quite close to the water, so the apparent effect of wind waves will be particularly pronounced. You could quite easily sail downwind at the same speed as the waves, making it feel as though the wind completely died and that you have stopped even though you may still be moving along just fine.

I used to teach sailing, and the #1 mistake that I saw students make when sailing downwind was to stay sheeted in too tight. When sailing upwind, the effect of sheeting in is that it increases heeling and makes it feel like you are going faster. So, people start to think of the sheet as a sort of "throttle" - sheet in to go faster, sheet out to slow down. Then, when sailing downwind, they are sheeted in too much to begin with. And, feeling like they have slowed way down, they sheet in more to "add some throttle".

A good general rule to get your mind wrapped around it, is to think that your boom is centered with close-hauled, at about 45 degrees to your boat's centerline when on a beam reach, and perpendicular to your boat when sailing DDW. Important: Those are not ACTUAL angles - just broad guidelines to get you in the ball park. In actuality, close hauled has the boom as far upwind as possible, DDW has the boom as far out as it will go, and a beam reach is somewhere in between. (And, what I just said about sailing close-hauled or DDW aren't entirely true all of the time either - just mental guidelines.)

Your boat's fastest point of sail is almost ceratainly very close to a beam reach and it should do well on a broad reach down to 120 degrees off the wind, or so. If that is not what you are experiencing, then it might be a perception issue, as I described, a trim issue, or a bit of both.