electric windlass

[DZinger]

I have a 2003 Beneteau 331 and would like to install an electric windlass.
Any comments as to a vertical or horizontal model, if so, what model do you recommend?
Also do you recommend a dedicated battery for the windlass?
If so, how can I charge this battery. My house and starting are lead acid, was told if I put the windlass
battery in the V berth area it needs to be Lithium, no allowed lead acid in sleeping areas.

I look forward to all comments.

 

[JoeWhite]

No new battery is needed. Run cables from your house batteries with fuse. Idle the engine while windlass is in use. Use up and down foot switches at the bow and use two 80-Amp relays up and down for wired remote with removable switch box to operate from the cockpit

 

[jssailem]

Taking you query apart, I provide the information I used in my installation. Your requirements may vary.

1. Any comments as to a vertical or horizontal model, if so, what model do you recommend?
   1. What does your setup permit? I found the vertical to be the best choice. I wanted it compact with motor below deck. I have adequate space for chain drop into my anchor locker. The vertical has the chain wrapping around the gypsy, less chance for chain or rode to slip off. These were among the positive features that motivated my selection.
2. Also do you recommend a dedicated battery for the windlass?
   1. I use my house battery (FLA). It is recharged by my engine. I run the engine when using the windlass. Just need to run adequate sized cables from battery to windlass.
3. If so, how can I charge this battery.
   1. Answered in query #2
4. My house and starting are lead acid, was told if I put the windlass battery in the V berth area it needs to be Lithium, no allowed lead acid in sleeping areas.
   1. Why complicate the situation with a lithium battery. You would need to get a new charging system etc. Keep life simple. See answer to query #2

 

[dlochner]

The decision to use a horizontal or vertical windlass depends on the chain fall. If the chain has to run forward before falling into the locker then a horizontal windlass works. If the chain can fall down right after the windlass, then a vertical works best.

As with most boat decisions, the dedicated windlass battery has pros and cons. A dedicated battery located near the windlass has shorter heavy cables, lighter long charging cables which reduce costs and eases installation issues, but it may require changes in the overall electrical system to ensure the battery is being charged properly and places additional weight in the bow. Using the house battery means running expensive heavy cables from the battery to the windlass, which in some boat is really difficult and expensive, but it simplifies the installation because there are minimal electrical changes and no battery box to locate and install.

On a 33 foot boat, I would probably opt for using the house bank for the windlass.

 

[jviss]

@dlochner is right on, and clear. I only part from his advice in terms of the battery. Were I to install a windlass today I would much prefer a dedicated battery up close to the windlass, with short, heavy cables, and a longer, lighter gauge charging cable running aft.

At this point I'd probably go for a LiFePO4 battery. You can get a 12V 3Ah motorcycle battery capable of 400A "starting" current for $100; and an automatic DC-DC charger for about $100. The battery only weighs 2..5 lb. (I haven't figured out yet if 3Ah is enough for this application, maybe not.)

 

[dlochner]

At this point I'd probably go for a LiFePO4 battery. You can get a 12V 3Ah motorcycle battery capable of 400A "starting" current for $100; and an automatic DC-DC charger for about $100. The battery only weighs 2..5 lb. (I haven't figured out yet if 3Ah is enough for this application, maybe not.)

If you go this route, best have a good strong back, because you will be pulling up the anchor and chain.

Most LFP batteries can not support high discharge rates. When running, my windlass (Maxwell 1500) draws 1200 watts or about 100 amps. The inrush current when first starting is much higher. The overall current draw isn't that much as it will pull 59 feet of chain in a minute, so it will only use about 3 ah. The motorcycle battery may handle the inrush, but can it sustain a 100 amp draw for 2 minutes?

Windlasses are often run intermittently, it runs a few seconds, then stops and then runs a few seconds, and so on. That repeated load on a small battery will probably be deadly to the battery.

While we're talking current draw, don't go cheap on the cable. Voltage drop over a long cable run is deadly to windlass motors. It is better to go up one size on the cable than to push a cable to its limits, thus if the calculation says 4ga is OK, going to 2ga will be friendlier to the windlass motor.

 

[jviss]

The motorcycle battery may handle the inrush, but can it sustain a 100 amp draw for 2 minutes?

Well, no. So, two of them in parallel.

 

[SoSound]

Our 2014 Beneteau 34 has a factory installed windlass which has a vertical gypsy, and is wired to use the house batteries. The system is wired with a relay, so that the windlass will not operate unless the engine is running.

 

[jviss]

The system is wired with a relay, so that the windlass will not operate unless the engine is running.

I've heard that's so with Bennies. Not a bad idea, unless it's an emergency and you can't get the engine running! But, I always run the engine when operating the windlass, not just for the battery, but for maneuvering when the anchor breaks loose. (I also run the engine when operating the toaster, a hair dryer, and any other high load AC device.).

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

As with most boat decisions, the dedicated windlass battery has pros and cons.

Very, very few pros with a dedicated battery up close to the windlass.

DO YOUR HOMEWORK and run the numbers for a properly sized cable from your house bank to the windlass and back.

Some of the characters who write in with windlass problems have either undersized cables, don't run the engine while weighing the anchor, or have corroded contacts. Then there are the geniuses that have a cable which is two sizes larger than what they need. They oversized it because it just "felt right".

So many people just can't (or won't) sit down and add 2 + 2.

 

[jviss]

Very, very few pros with a dedicated battery up close to the windlass.

Oh, really? I'd like to hear your analysis. I think there are many pros. And, there are many cons to wiring from the house bank. A lot of these pros and cons have a time value. I mean, once you install the appropriately sized wire from the house bank to the windlass, having spent the money and taken the time, you are done. And, even if you have compromised house batts, you can still hoist that anchor on alternator current.

But if you size that cable for a 3% drop across perhaps 80+ feet, round trip, at, let's say, 100A, you're into some pretty thick cable. I think my Catalina had 2/0 welding cable for the windlass, which is tough to even bend, never mind install! And then, you need to properly transition from that stuff to the circuit breaker, switches, etc., which isn't trivial, and if done improperly, can result in large Voltage drops, and heat.

So, it's always a trade-off. Both systems can be made to work well.

 

[dlochner]

I think there are many pros.

As with all things sailing, in the end it depends. The pros run inversely to the length of the boat, the longer the boat, the more benefits there are to having a battery up front. Shorter boats less so, because the savings in the cabling don't offset the cost of a battery and building a secure place for it.

Then there are 24v and 48v systems and it's another ball game. Why put more weight in the bow on? The smaller cable sizes work for higher voltage systems.

 

[Davidasailor26]

I've heard that's so with Bennies. Not a bad idea, unless it's an emergency and you can't get the engine running! But, I always run the engine when operating the windlass, not just for the battery, but for maneuvering when the anchor breaks loose. (I also run the engine when operating the toaster, a hair dryer, and any other high load AC device.).

I’m pretty sure mine runs anytime the “ignition” is on, regardless of whether the engine is actually running. So in an emergency with an engine that wouldn’t start you could, at least in theory, still run the windlass as long as the instrument panel is functioning. Having the engine running and providing 14V certainly helps counteract any voltage drop in the cables though.

 

[SoSound]

On our boat, the windlass will not operate if the motor is not running, we've tested it with just the panel on, nothing. The relay is activated by output from the alternator, no output, no windlass. We had a conversation at one of our Rendezvous (is that plural?) with our dealer, who is a friend of ours. We tested it the next time we went out to make sure we weren't spreading incorrect information.

[EDIT]: The same relay also provides power to the engine compartment blower. I posted a thread several years ago about our engine blower quitting, and a charge alarm sounding while we were cruising. It was a broken wiring connecter to the relay, the battery was probably charging just fine. They may also use a similar system for bow thrusters, etc., especially if each of these power hungry components does not have their own dedicated battery.

 

[jviss]

Rendezvous (is that plural?)

The plural of rendezvous is rendezvous The distinction is in the pronunciation. The "s" at the end is silent in the singular form but it pronounced as "z" in the plural form.

 

[Davidasailor26]

On our boat, the windlass will not operate if the motor is not running, we've tested it with just the panel on, nothing. The relay is activated by output from the alternator, no output, no windlass. We had a conversation at one of our Rendezvous (is that plural?) with our dealer, who is a friend of ours. We tested it the next time we went out to make sure we weren't spreading incorrect information.

[EDIT]: The same relay also provides power to the engine compartment blower. I posted a thread several years ago about our engine blower quitting, and a charge alarm sounding while we were cruising. It was a broken wiring connecter to the relay, the battery was probably charging just fine. They may also use a similar system for bow thrusters, etc., especially if each of these power hungry components does not have their own dedicated battery.

Interesting. On our 37 the blower is also powered by a relay, but it comes on as soon as the power button on the panel is turned on. I’ll double check my thruster and windlass this weekend.

 

[jviss]

Interesting. On our 37 the blower is also powered by a relay, but it comes on as soon as the power button on the panel is turned on. I’ll double check my thruster and windlass this weekend.

Wow, you have a bow thruster on a 37' sailboat? I imagine that's a pretty rare accessory in that size boat. Do you use it often?

 

[Davidasailor26]

Wow, you have a bow thruster on a 37' sailboat? I imagine that's a pretty rare accessory in that size boat. Do you use it often?

It was a factory option on the 37 and I got the sense many but not all hulls came with it.

We use it most times we dock and leave the slip. We had an O’Day 28 before this and I was always very comfortable maneuvering, using prop walk to my advantage, etc. But now we’re in a fairway that’s about 50’ wide minus a few feet from a boat extending out of the slip behind us. That’s not much space to turn the boat 90 degrees. We also prefer to keep the boat bow-in, but that means working against the prop walk when we come and go. On calm days I can get in and out without touching the thruster, but with any kind of wind it’s very helpful.

 

[jviss]

It was a factory option on the 37 and I got the sense many but not all hulls came with it.

We use it most times we dock and leave the slip. We had an O’Day 28 before this and I was always very comfortable maneuvering, using prop walk to my advantage, etc. But now we’re in a fairway that’s about 50’ wide minus a few feet from a boat extending out of the slip behind us. That’s not much space to turn the boat 90 degrees. We also prefer to keep the boat bow-in, but that means working against the prop walk when we come and go. On calm days I can get in and out without touching the thruster, but with any kind of wind it’s very helpful.

Ah, I see. Makes sense.

 

[dlochner]

It was a factory option on the 37 and I got the sense many but not all hulls came with it.

We use it most times we dock and leave the slip. We had an O’Day 28 before this and I was always very comfortable maneuvering, using prop walk to my advantage, etc. But now we’re in a fairway that’s about 50’ wide minus a few feet from a boat extending out of the slip behind us. That’s not much space to turn the boat 90 degrees. We also prefer to keep the boat bow-in, but that means working against the prop walk when we come and go. On calm days I can get in and out without touching the thruster, but with any kind of wind it’s very helpful.

@Davidasailor26's marina is typical of many on Chesapeake where the slips are narrow with very short fingers, tight fairways, and pilings and not fingers to tie to. I have no fond memories of docking in David's marina or the many others on the Chesapeake. In those marinas a bow thruster is almost a necessity. I should note the dockhands in David's marina are very patient and helpful.