New Electronics - Is this about right?

[BrianQ]

While not the way I would do it the photo in the initial post will work fine as an unbalanced network as long as long as your total backbone length is less than 40m (131 feet). It is always better to run a balanced network as expansion is often easier, although it is not always possible to run a balanced network considering where the displays and MFD are to be located in relation to where power accessibility is most convenient.

The i50/i60 displays will convert the analog transducer data into a format that can be read by devices such as a Tri Data Displays, i70 Instrument Display, or an MFD on the STng backbone without the need for an ITC-5. If you don't use the dedicated i50/i60 displays (speed, depth, wind) and use all i70 Instrument displays then you will need to use an ITC-5 to convert the transducer data into the STng format.

About a year ago I upgraded My older Raymarine ST series instruments with i50/i60 displays and an Axiom MFD without replacing any of the existing transducers and it works perfectly well. I have the depth, speed and wind data displayed on the right side of the MFD screen overlayed on the chart data. A few months ago I did a similar upgrade on a friends boat and put an i70 at his nav station, again using the existing transducers without an ITC-5.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

The i50/i60 displays will convert the analog transducer data into a format that can be read by devices such as a Tri Data Displays, i70 Instrument Display, or an MFD on the STng backbone without the need for an ITC-5. If you don't use the dedicated i50/i60 displays (speed, depth, wind) and use all i70 Instrument displays then you will need to use an ITC-5 to convert the transducer data into the STng format.

Thanks for clarifying this @BrianQ . I was uncertain about this and I didn't understand the operations manual sufficiently to know this. It seemed very unclear to me. So the 3 displays are simply linked to the STng network and they can also be daisy-chained? That sounds simple enough!

Not to hijack, but I am very interested to know if I can use my 50/i60 displays at my navigation station basically as repeaters on the NMEA 2000 network. I have removed the analog transducers and instead have installed DST 810 "Smart" multi-sensor and WS 320 wireless wind sensor. I have newer instruments in the cockpit, but I want to re-purpose these raymarine displays down below, if I can.

My i60 wind display appears to be picking up the signal and repeating it flawlessly. The i50 speed and depth displays are powered but not reading anything (I just get dashes). Now, I am reading about the DST 810, which has "wireless connectivity" to the Airmar CAST app. I'm supposing that I need to download the app on my phone possibly to calibrate the depth and speed instruments ... Do you know anything about this? I'm linking @Ward H because we have been discussing these issues. (Ward, it appears that you were correct! - I shouldn't ever doubt you!)

 

[BrianQ]

Yes, the devices can be daisy chained using spur cables. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Each installation is unique to the boat and the owner's wishes, in my case I have three locations where compatible devices are all linked together, nav station, cabin top, and helm station. I split the network at the nav station where connection to the circuit breaker panel was convenient and ran a backbone cable from a 5-way connector to the cabin top and one to the helm. Then ran spur cables off another 5-way at each location to the individual displays, MFD, etc. The only daisy chain is from the wind display to the tri data display at the helm. the tri data display is at the end of the daisy chain and only used to fill an existing hole in the pod. As I said earlier all the speed wind depth data is displayed on the MFD.

The i50/i60 displays can be used as repeaters if the necessary data they need is on the STng network. So as long as your DST810 is also physically wired to the STng network the displays should be able to see that data and display it. I'm not sure if the data from the DST810 is sending the data stream via Bluetooth to a compatible display device if that device will package the data and make it available on the STng backbone. I would think not but I may be incorrect. It is also possible your i50 speed and depth displays are stuck in master mode. They should switch to repeater mode if no transducer is directly connected but you might need to change the setting on each i50 that is not displaying the correct data.

I have not used the DST810 but I have seen it in use via Bluetooth and it is simple to set up.

 

[rpwillia]

Brian, Scott, Thank you both for your inputs.
Scott, FWIW John did get that pack you listed with the instruments and the sensors.
Brian, Great to know those instruments put NMEA signals for their respective sensors onto the SeatalkNG network. TBH, if I had been the guy at Raymarine doing the redesign that is what I would have done. This means John has the best of both worlds, dedicated display and the data on the network to display elsewhere.
We are going to use the spur approach and since all 4 instruments plus the MFD are in the cockpit will likely have 2 of those 5 connector blocks up there.
Regarding power, I know there is power already up in the pedestal, and I am not sure how the power connects to the autopilot computer that will most likely be down below nav station below. I know the MFD is powered separately, and the instruments (speed, depth, wind, autopilot control head will all be powered of the SeatalkNG bus. I suspect the new GPS is also powered off the SeatalkNG bus as well and I have no idea where that is going to wind up at this point.

This discussion has been great as it has answered a lot of questions I had and I am pretty stoked to get on with this. Also, found this Raymarine video last night that explains a lot of things about the different instrument and sensor families.

Scott, no worries on hijacking the thread as this is all very interesting.

 

[Ward H]

@BrianQ Welcome to SBO!
I'm a little late to this party so I just read thru the entire thread twice.
It sounds like all the questions asked have been answered, even Scott's, but I'd like to add a couple of comments.

An i70S display only calibrates an iTC5. It doesn't calibrate any other device on the STng network.

The ACU, the MFD Chart plotter and the STng network each require their own power supply with each having a separate fuse amperage requirement. The ACU and the chart plotter will not supply power to the network or other devices on the network, even though they are connected to the network.
I have two breakers for my instruments. One powers the ACU which has a higher amperage draw and requires a 10 Amp breaker. The other 15 Amp breaker powers a sub panel. The sub panel has two fuses, a 5 Amp for the network power and a 7 Amp for the chart plotter.

Yea, RM manuals and diagrams are very convoluted as they try to show the many scenarios a user may encounter.

@BrianQ You said "A few months ago I did a similar upgrade on a friends boat and put an i70 at his nav station, again using the existing transducers without an ITC-5."
I'm assuming he is also using i50 and i60 displays?

Ref: DST810. Pretty sure the DST810 uses BT and the App only for calibration. It is does not transfer data to the network or a device, though it may display the data on the App. I would think it would need to for calibration purposes but not for practical use.


@Scott T-Bird

 

[BrianQ]

Thank you!

Yes, the i50/i60 displays replaced the older ST series displays. The upgrade to STng was a simple plug and play install, the hardest part running the STng backbone cables.

 

[Ward H]

I agree that the backbone is the hardest part of the install and on my C30 even that was easy. Having the RM color coded system really helped to keep things straight. I went with i70S displays so I needed the iTC5 and it all came together very easily.

 

[rpwillia]

Just thought I would post an update. With our schedules we have only had a couple of times to work on this, but we are making progress. He does have the i50/i60 instruments, but he opted to go to an ITC-5 data converter to eliminate those three wires through the tube running to the helm. I do have a couple of questions since the manuals are pretty vague.
1. He has a below decks motor drive for his autopilot. The red dashed lines in the drawing below are two ideas we have. Coming off his drive motor were a (#3) red and black larger gauge (14) wires as well as a (#4) black and blue (22 gauge) wires in a single sheath. We ran these to the autopilot computer. But every time we try to use it we get a drive motor not found. The one Raymarine diagram I found in the install manual only has a single line going to the drive motor from the AutoPilot Computer so not a lot of help there. I am starting to think we should run actual power to those two connections (#3) on the AutoPilot Computer as with a meter we see no output voltage on the connections to the motor. But that does not seem to be enough power to run the motor if #4 is the only connection from the AP Computer to the drive motor.
2. John went with an ITC-5 converter and it works flawlessly. But curiously, the depth is on the network and displayed on the MFD, but not on the actual depth instrument - see the helm picture with the depths circled. We are using his original depth sensor. One problem is he does not have the nice fittings I have on my boat where I can pull the sensors while in the water; he will need to haul out to swap out the old sensor for the new one that has depth and temperature. But again the MFD is getting the depth off the network and the instrument should as well.
3. For what should be the simplest part, the radar is not being found. When we try and connect to it from the MFD, it gives us a "No radar found" message. Raymarine did not really answer on this when we contacted them. This should be the simplest part as there are only two cables, one from the radome to the power panel, and the other from the radome to the back of the MFD (Axion 9+). The two options we are considering are to pull the radome down and ensure we have good connections there, and the other thought is to do a factory reset on the Axiom and then update the software while the radar is powered up in case there is something in the initialization routine that got missed. Any other ideas will be appreciated.
4. The last issue is something we have not attempted yet. He had a really nice Garmin 74CV or 94CV (sorry have not really paid attention to it yet), at the helm and he moved that to his Nav station below. He eventually wants to hook it into the network and from what I have read he either needs a cable with the SeaTalkNG connector on one end and a NMEA2000 connector on the other as the only real difference is in the connectors and the Garmin should be able to understand the SeaTalkNG sentences just fine.

I do like the setup he will have at the helm. The Axiom is super easy to navigate and I really like the touch screen. Having the four dedicated displays is a nice bonus as the Axiom is a 9, but still not huge enough you want to waste any screen real estate if you do not need to. I would still think about the sonar option and swapping out the radio for one with AIS, but his CFO has said not at this time

 

[Scott T-Bird]

1. He has a below decks motor drive for his autopilot. The red dashed lines in the drawing below are two ideas we have. Coming off his drive motor were a (#3) red and black larger gauge (14) wires as well as a (#4) black and blue (22 gauge) wires in a single sheath. We ran these to the autopilot computer. But every time we try to use it we get a drive motor not found. The one Raymarine diagram I found in the install manual only has a single line going to the drive motor from the AutoPilot Computer so not a lot of help there. I am starting to think we should run actual power to those two connections (#3) on the AutoPilot Computer as with a meter we see no output voltage on the connections to the motor. But that does not seem to be enough power to run the motor if #4 is the only connection from the AP Computer to the drive motor.

I couldn't tell you what the 22 gauge wires are for but I suspect that you need to connect DC power directly to the computer and also from the computer to the drive motor. The instructions for my x-5 computer show this and I would guess that any raymarine computer would have a similar plan. So your red-dashed lines will represent a positive and negative lead for each connection. The instructions probably also point out the need for a fuse between the DC power supply (presumably from the DC panel) and the computer. I suppose the fuse is there to protect the computer since the breakers in the panel protect the wire. It should be very clear on the computer where the leads are connected.

As for the Garmin chartplotter ... why the need to network it? My Garmin 74 CP was independent from all instrumentation. It did provide GPS to the SH VHF and receive AIS from the radio via NMEA 0183. I still have my Garmin and may mount it down below at the nav station, but I'm thinking it will be stand alone.

 

[Ward H]

1. I think @Scott T-Bird has the answer about the wiring.

2. On the Depth display, I suspect it may need to be "pointed" to getting the depth data off of the network instead of the direct connection to the transducer. In the display settings there may be a "data source" setting.

3. I agree with your plan to do a reset and software update on the Axiom.

4. I had an older Garmin chart plotter which had the NMEA 2k input jack. Plugged in my STng network, plugged in power and it worked fine. Yours should too.

 

[rpwillia]

Scott, Ward, Thank you all for responding. I did find an answer to the Depth gauge and really what we should have done was do an RTFM.

By default the depth instrument assumes it is the Master provider and that it will put the depth value on the network. With the ITC-5 connected it assumes it is the master when your depth sensor is attached to it. That is why we could see depth on the MFD, but not on the instrument.

There is a quick 1-2 minute way to tell the depth instrument it is a display only consumer of the depth gauge.
i50 Manuals | Raymarine
The procedure is on page 37 of the manual, but here it is below:
1. Press and hold the Depth and Alarm buttons at the same time for approximately 4 seconds, until the Software Version page is displayed.
2. Press the Depth button to display the Master/Repeater Status page
3. Press the Offset and Reset button to change the status between Master or Repeater (you will want Repeater). The status will flash.
4. Use the Offset or Reset button to change the status between Master or Repeater.
5. Press the Offset and Reset buttons at the same time to confirm the status.
6. Press and hold the Depth and Alarm buttons at the same time for approximately 2 seconds to return to normal operation.
7. Power off the display by pressing and holding the Power button until the screen turns off.
8. Power the display back on by pressing and holding the Power button until the screen turns on (approximately 2 seconds)
9. Check the display's status bu repeating steps 1 and 2 above (or just simply look to see if you have a depth value displayed)

Will likely want to do this for the Speed instrument as well, even though it appears to be working. That procedure is on page 50 of the manual.

I asked John to pass me the model of the drive motor for the below deck autopilot. I think Scott is right on about connecting 12vdc to the terminals somehow, or better yet to the drive motor. My best guess is we should be connecting 12VDC directly to the drive motor where the two smaller wires connect between the AutoPilot Computer and the drive motor and active a solenoid on the motor that applies power and direction to the motor.

Regarding the Garmin, with the right cable it appears pretty simple. I am on the fence on whether I like the Garmin or the Raymarine better. Since it is at his nav station below having all the sensor data may be useful if he is at anchor and it is snotty out, no need to go topside to confirm it is snotty out.

 

[rpwillia]

Final Update. We got it all working. The problem with the Depth instrument was that it has to be manually set to be in Follower mode, by default it is in Master mode. This is different from the Speed instrument which if it does not see a sensor directly attached to it assumes it is in Follower mode and looks to the network for data. And, they are both i50's so you think they would be both set up the same.
John did get the radar working, the big fix was reinserting the connectors in as one of them was not working right. Also after some fiddling with the Autopilot computer and the below deck drive unit we got everything working.

Pretty nice upgrade when all was said and done. I do like the Axiom MFD as it was pretty intuitive and the touch screen was pretty responsive.

Thanks to all of you for all of the excellent advice.