Another Legend 40.5 holding tank replacement 3.26.24

[SV Maverick]

I have been putting this project off for three years now. The only original problem was the failure of the macerator pump (which can't be used on the Chesapeake anyhow) and resulting leakage. The pump was removed and all offending tubes were closed off. The original tank did not leak, but it looks like it was damaged by implosion and pumped back up due to a clogged vent (note picture). I learned about this problem on the forum....after I bought the boat. The vent was clogged by the outside screen and debris. Once this was opened the tank emptied/vented properly. It might be leaking now or the tubing is permeated. Either way it is time to replace everything. I am inclined not to replace/plumb for the macerator. Most of the other "fun" jobs are done...I told my wife I prefer "preventive maintenance" to a catastrophic repair.

I have read the other threads numerous times, but I would like to condense the information here:

1) Replacement tank from Triple "M" plastics.
a) Have them make a 1 inch vent.
b) Where do I get new fittings and their sizes? These are threaded in?
d) Tank sensor to coordinate with Raymarine?

2) Use Raritan Saniflex
a) Length from forward head 19 feet. Use old hose fastened as described to pull lubricated new hose back to tank.
b) So what size and total amount for forward head, saloon head, pump out and vent?
c) How to access vent and deck and new fittings? Looks like a major pain.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Of course since I have the cabin sole out I happened to check the port and starboard water tanks. They look pretty scummy. Method for cleaning tanks without removing the entire lids? Spray or sponge into them or use pressure washer on low?

 

[Rick D]

FWIW, I think I would avoid pulling the top of the belly water tanks off and simply use the access to rinse them out and use a shop vac to drain them. I would be concerned about effectively re-sealing them. Having said that, I would recommend removing the crews and re-bedding them with 4200 or similar since that was where mine were seeping. As far as the macerator, I would suggest having all the plumbing in place and just cap it off. Some day, it will be a simple matter for you or a subsequent owner to replace the macerator for offshore use. And, yes, you will need fittings to plumb in to the new holding tank (at least I did). Those you can get from a big box store. I did not upgrade for the larger vent. I thought I did but mis-measured, so I am still using the same vent hose and fitting. Have fun!

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

You're definitely on the right track, but not quite how I'd do it.
1. Triple M Plastics is a great choice...IF you actually need to pay for a custom tank. Ronco Plastics. They make top quality rotomolded tanks for a very reasonable and have more than 400 shapes and sizes, over 100 of which are non-rectangular...and they install female threaded hose fittings in the sizes and locations specified by the customer when they make the tank. They're great to work with. You buy the male thread-barb fittings from the marine retailer of your choice.
Ronco Plastics Water and Waste Holding Tanks catalog
Ronco Plastics marine Tank drawings

2. Raritan Sani-Flex is the only hose I recommend any more. However...
2a. 19' is more than 3x as far as most marine toilets can push bowl contents without a LOT of help from gravity. The top rated macerating electric all china "throne"--the Raritan Marine Elegance Marine Elegance Product listing (don't be spooked by the list pric, there are retailer who have it for a LOT less)-- has a pump that can move bowl contents up to 100 linear feet, 30 vertical feet, but if a new.toilet isn't in your budget , there are plumbing work-arounds that can create that help. A second tank (smaller for the least used toilet) is also an alternative.
2b. Whether to go with a 1" toilet discharge line or 1.5" is up to you and also depends on the size your toilet uses. Your pumpout hose will have to be 1.5" because that's the size of all deck pumpout fittings.
2c. Depending on the routing of the vent line (it should be short and straight) it may make more sense to install a new vent thru-hull.
If you'd like my help sorting out all the details, send me a PM.

As for your water tanks, the first "sticky" in the Plumbing and Sanitation forum has complete instructions for recommissoning the fresh water system.

--Peggie

 

[artboas]

You're definitely on the right track, but not quite how I'd do it.
1. Triple M Plastics is a great choice...IF you actually need to pay for a custom tank. Ronco Plastics. They make top quality rotomolded tanks for a very reasonable and have more than 400 shapes and sizes, over 100 of which are non-rectangular...and they install female threaded hose fittings in the sizes and locations specified by the customer when they make the tank. They're great to work with. You buy the male thread-barb fittings from the marine retailer of your choice.
Ronco Plastics Water and Waste Holding Tanks catalog
Ronco Plastics marine Tank drawings

2. Raritan Sani-Flex is the only hose I recommend any more. However...
2a. 19' is more than 3x as far as most marine toilets can push bowl contents without a LOT of help from gravity. The top rated macerating electric all china "throne"--the Raritan Marine Elegance Marine Elegance Product listing (don't be spooked by the list pric, there are retailer who have it for a LOT less)-- has a pump that can move bowl contents up to 100 linear feet, 30 vertical feet, but if a new.toilet isn't in your budget , there are plumbing work-arounds that can create that help. A second tank (smaller for the least used toilet) is also an alternative.
2b. Whether to go with a 1" toilet discharge line or 1.5" is up to you and also depends on the size your toilet uses. Your pumpout hose will have to be 1.5" because that's the size of all deck pumpout fittings.
2c. Depending on the routing of the vent line (it should be short and straight) it may make more sense to install a new vent thru-hull.
If you'd like my help sorting out all the details, send me a PM.

As for your water tanks, the first "sticky" in the Plumbing and Sanitation forum has complete instructions for recommissoning the fresh water system.

--Peggie

As a former 40.5 owner, here is my suggestion
Use Triple M. They have made many 40.5 tanks
For hose, go with Vetus. I just did a whole sani refit, and the vetus hose is excellent.
For the guage, get the Wema sensor. Have triple M install it, or at least provide the holes, etc.

 

[SV Maverick]

Thank you Rick D and Peggie. Good suggestion about Ronco Plastics but unfortunately they do not have anything suitable. They were quick to respond and helpful. Have to go with Triple "M."

The macerator pump is a weak link in the system. Since we have to have it disabled on the Chesapeake and never use it the pump goes bad before it is ever used. Then it leaks. Maybe I could include a valve before the pump so waste does enter it during pump out. The macerator is horizontally mounted to the clean out line with a 'T" so waste flows past and slightly into the macerator during pump out.

 

[Rich Stidger]

The macerator pump is a weak link in the system. Since we have to have it disabled on the Chesapeake and never use it the pump goes bad before it is ever used. Then it leaks. Maybe I could include a valve before the pump so waste does enter it during pump out. The macerator is horizontally mounted to the clean out line with a 'T" so waste flows past and slightly into the macerator during pump out.

The macerator's original location was PITA to service. I moved it to the shelf under the NAV seat and positioned it for easy service. You might want to consider this option even if you are not going to use it.
The attached pictures how the original location and the hose routing. The first picture shows the new location of the macerator.

 

[Rick D]

My macerator was moved when the boat was recommissioned for me 25 years ago and is in a similar position to Rich's. I never saw it in the OEM position, but where it is now is an easy service FWIW.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

For the guage, get the Wema sensor. Have triple M install it, or at least provide the holes, etc.

Wema gauges or any other tank level indicator that uses an internal sensor are fine for water and fuel, but not for waste because the animal fats in waste build up on the sensors and clog them, resulting in inaccurate readings... This requires removing the sensors every year or two to clean them by hand...NOT a fun job! There are several systems that use sensors that are applied to the outside of the tank...SCAD Scad Tank Monitors are the top rated ones, available in single or two tank system, which allows you to use one for waste and the other for water or gray water. Very reasonably price d (a vailable from a number retailers including Amazon and Walmart!) Easy to install, very low amperage draw, provide an almost infinite number of level readings, unlike most systems that use internal sensors that can only provide 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and full.

As for hoses...Vetus premium sanitation hose is excellent, rated very close to the top rated Raritan SaniFlex and a bit less expensive. However, SaniFlex does have a 10 year warranty against odor permeation and is so flexible it can be bent almost as tight as a hairpin (only 3.25" separation in a 180" degree bend) without kinking...I don't know how Vetus compares to that or whether it matters since hopefully there won't be any 180 bends in your sanitation plumbing. Raritan is a US mfr with outstanding tech support, if that matters to you. Defender has the best price, btw.

That's my $.02 worth,anyway

-Peggie

 

[SV Maverick]

Amazing resources! I will modify as described. Thank you so much. I will post pictures and update as project progresses.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

What is the make/model/approx age of your toilets? If not one of the high end all china "thrones," it may be necessary to be a bit creative with your toilet discharge plumbing to create the help from gravity needed...I'll be glad to help you with that. Placement of tank fittings matters too...for instance, I would put them ALL on the TOP of the tank with a diptube inside the tank on the pumpout line eliminates standing sewage in that line...placement of the vent fitting to prevent spillage out the vent when heeled is important...I'll be glad to help you with that too.

--Peggie

 

[artboas]

Wema gauges or any other tank level indicator that uses an internal sensor are fine for water and fuel, but not for waste because the animal fats in waste build up on the sensors and clog them, resulting in inaccurate readings... This requires removing the sensors every year or two to clean them by hand...NOT a fun job! There are several systems that use sensors that are applied to the outside of the tank...SCAD Scad Tank Monitors are the top rated ones, available in single or two tank system, which allows you to use one for waste and the other for water or gray water. Very reasonably price d (a vailable from a number retailers including Amazon and Walmart!) Easy to install, very low amperage draw, provide an almost infinite number of level readings, unlike most systems that use internal sensors that can only provide 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and full.

As for hoses...Vetus premium sanitation hose is excellent, rated very close to the top rated Raritan SaniFlex and a bit less expensive. However, SaniFlex does have a 10 year warranty against odor permeation and is so flexible it can be bent almost as tight as a hairpin (only 3.25" separation in a 180" degree bend) without kinking...I don't know how Vetus compares to that or whether it matters since hopefully there won't be any 180 bends in your sanitation plumbing. Raritan is a US mfr with outstanding tech support, if that matters to you. Defender has the best price, btw.

That's my $.02 worth,anyway

-Peggie

Peggy,

Wema makes a sensor specifically for waste tanks.
I’ve had mine for years, and it’s been very reliable. They put the float in a “cage”, which works well

On tge 40.5. You have no access to the sides of the tank. It wouid be difficult to try and incorporate the scad system

 

[Scott NIelsen]

Having gone through all the above mentioned permeations described above I replaced the macerator with a diaphragm waste pump. It has never clogged to date. I attached pictures of the installation on my 1996 Hunter 37.5 OLD CROW

 

[artboas]

Having gone through all the above mentioned permeations described above I replaced the macerator with a diaphragm waste pump. It has never clogged to date. I attached pictures of the installation on my 1996 Hunter 37.5 OLD CROW

I have concerns about this
On my 40.5, the head was non-electric manual.
With this, you are putting into the tank exactly what you are flushing out of the bowl. (Trying not to get to graphic)
The diagram pump deals with solids well, but I’m concerned about pipe & through hull clogs.
I think with a manual head, a masceator for overboard discharge is a better solution.
I could be wrong, but it’s just my opinion.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

The diagram pump deals with solids well, but I’m concerned about pipe & through hull clogs.

You, along with most people, don't realize that solid waste is 75% water and therefore dissolves quickly in water (the tank), and even a manual toilet pump breaks it up...if it didn't, just getting it TO the tank would be a problem...and occasionally is. When that happens just wait half an hour and flush again. So if your toilet can get it TO the tank, your worries about clogged thru-hulls and piping coming OUT of the tank if not macerated are unfounded.

--Peggie

 

[artboas]

You, along with most people, don't realize that solid waste is 75% water and therefore dissolves quickly in water (the tank), and even a manual toilet pump breaks it up...if it didn't, just getting it TO the tank would be a problem...and occasionally is. When that happens just wait half an hour and flush again. So if your toilet can get it TO the tank, your worries about clogged thru-hulls and piping coming OUT of the tank if not macerated are unfounded.

--Peggie

Peggy,
You are the expert on this subject, and I defer to your judgement. Thanks for all the great advice !

 

[SV Maverick]

Ok so the holding tank is out. I was afraid that I was not going to be able to pull 1 1/2" off of the fittings. With a little bit of twisting they all came off. From the pictures you can see that there was a small hole on the bottom of the tank and corrosion under the vent. We were very fastidious in previous seasons about pumping out the tank and rinsing every weekend which probably limited leakage and odor. It was starting to smell.

The best part was lifting the tank (with some fluid and antifreeze) out the companionway by myself. The openings were obviously "up" by my face and I got stuck in a position where I could not move and every attempt to rotate or translate the tank created a blossom of tank stench in my face. Of course any reasonable person would have made some attempt to close off the tank before moving it, but in my rush to get the job done I neglected this important step.

I have the custom tank ordered. My next question is how to access the deck fitting and vent through hole? Looks like I will have to drill out a few bungs and remove the vertical panel behind the navigation station. I also need to calculate the total 1 1/2" Saniflex and 1". Because of the long run to the forward head it looks I will need about 30' of tubing. I can run most of the tubing while waiting for the completion of the tank.

Unfortunately, curiosity got the best of me and I wanted to examine the status of all the cabin sole pieces. I found areas around screw holes that had gone punky and discolored areas. Using penetrating epoxy and repairing as best I can at home. It is about a twenty piece jigsaw puzzle. This also means refinishing the sole, another major project. I have tried to space out the projects over a couple of years so at least we get a few months of sailing in the summer. I do enjoy working on the boat, but some projects have more "fun" return on dollars and time spent.

 

[SV Maverick]

Finished my holding tank project. The tank from Triple M was not made to the proper dimensions despite them having the proper drawings and even a sample tank to follow. They said it was "difficult to make" after claiming they have made hundreds of them. Over two inches short on the longest dimension and flanges were wrong. They did not offer to remake it. Oh no we are so sorry...is that inconvenient for you? Expensive mistake. It fit in the space just ok, so I used it anyway. Would not recommend their service unless absolutely necessary. Used external SCAD tank monitor which was easy to use and calibrate. Difficult to locate Dometic hose adaptors 1.5" but Marine Sanitation and Supply had them at a reasonable price. Used Raritan Sani-Flex which ran "easily" from the bow. Both heads working well.

Positioned macerator as per Rich's suggestion. It tested well on the hard with tap water in the tank. Cleaned the water tanks, refinished all the cabin sole (like 22 parts) and reinstalled everything. Also had my hull soda blasted. Had to wait for temps and wx to get good enough to start painting. Could not get any help so did two barrier coats and two ablative in one 12 hour day as per manufacturer's time specifications. Nearly killed me.

 

[Rich Stidger]

I am very surprised that you tank was made wrong. Your mis-made tank is the first I have heard about. Even more surprising is that Triple M didn't want to make it right. I wonder if they have had a change in ownership or key personnel?

At least you able to use the tank and you have lost maybe a gallon of capacity.

 

[SV Maverick]

Like your motto, "No job is so simple it can't be screwed up."

 

[keswift1]

Thanks to Peggie and others. I am following closely on all the advise since I am probably soon to follow on the unpleasant work. I have first to determine if the holding tank on my ‘95 40.5 has been replaced or is original. Looking down on what i can see under the nav station seat I can see some white material but nothing clearly aluminum. How do I make the assessment? Secondly, what are the initial steps to access? Thanks, Eric