Keep those fire extinguishers up to date!

[dlochner]

An interesting SCOTUS case involving marine insurance. Note, mention is made of the Lochner Law Firm. Todd Lochner is not a known relative, although I sometimes get asked that question in when I am in Annapolis.

Supreme Court Upholds Back-Door Denials of Boat Insurance Claims

Don't Go Aground If Your Fire Extinguishers Aren't Up To Date, Etc.

loosecannon.substack.com

 

[FastOlson]

Dave, you sure do have my attention! I just sent this story to our insurance agent for comment.
Thanks again.

 

[Calif. Ted]

Replaced mine recently as they were over 10 years old, put the old ones in the cars.

 

[American_Mainsail]

Replaced mine recently as they were over 10 years old, put the old ones in the cars.

I do this same thing.

 

[kloudie1]

Kinda reinforces the general opinion that the insurance guys are sometimes crooks in nice suits. .. Yup I just replaced the extinguishers on my boat when the new guidelines came out.. The replaced ones were 30 years old and still functioned perfectly.. I made sure the powder was not clumped by shaking them every three months. The pressure gauges were fine and indicated "in the green"..

 

[twodzusfittings]

What is the lifespan of a marine fire extinguisher? I say marine, as mine were bought from a west marine, but found identical units at a Costco Store, for 1/2 the price. It just didn't have the label Marine anywhere. Is it 5yr, 10, yrs or they are always good as long as the arrow points to the green on the view dial? On my thirty footer, I have five units. One in the V berth, one at the front of the main cabin in the galley, one at the end, one near the engine access and one in the cockpit, in the quick grab lazarette.

 

[Dalliance]

Interesting article. I replaced my extinguishers last year. The old ones are still in the boat as backup. Insurers finding slippery ways to deny claims is nothing new, but being able to choose a favorable court really stacks the deck in their favor.

 

[Richard19068]

This case is about a lot more than just fire extinguishers. It points out that the insurer can screw you (my opinion) for any breach of the policy even if it has absolutely nothing to do about the claim.

 

[william24424]

Thank you for reminder, I just noticed the tag was signed in 1986, yet it still pointed to green/good.

 

[Mark Maulden]

Kinda reinforces the general opinion that the insurance guys are sometimes crooks in nice suits. .. Yup I just replaced the extinguishers on my boat when the new guidelines came out.. The replaced ones were 30 years old and still functioned perfectly.. I made sure the powder was not clumped by shaking them every three months. The pressure gauges were fine and indicated "in the green"..

Where do you find new guidelines? And are they “only” guidelines?

 

[Rick Webb]

From the atrticle:
"boat’s fire suppression system was out of compliance"

This reads different than a "fire extinguisher" wonder if the boat had an automatic system and was out of certification?

I suspect there is more to the case than this short article covers. Much like the McDonalds hot coffee case.

The fire extinguisher bottles that you buy at a "marine" store, or a hardware store are generally the same. You can buy an extinguisher at a box store and will say "Coast Guard certified with approved bracket" (or something similar). A bracket must be sold with the unit to be certified but there is no requirement for you to use the bracket.

 

[dlochner]

Where do you find new guidelines? And are they “only” guidelines?

The requirements, not guidelines, are here:

Fire Extinguishers Requirements for the Recreational Boater FAQ

If you want to read the USCG regulations, you can do so here:

Federal Register :: Request Access

Thank you for reminder, I just noticed the tag was signed in 1986, yet it still pointed to green/good.

The rules are different for refillable extinguishers and single use extinguishers. Refillable extinguishers need to be periodically serviced to be legal. I suspect an tag that is 38 years old is a bit overdue.

 

[dlochner]

Kinda reinforces the general opinion that the insurance guys are sometimes crooks in nice suits. .. Yup I just replaced the extinguishers on my boat when the new guidelines came out.. The replaced ones were 30 years old and still functioned perfectly.. I made sure the powder was not clumped by shaking them every three months. The pressure gauges were fine and indicated "in the green"..

One important difference between the boat in the article and the boats most of us here own is the number of digits in the value. Most of us have boats in the 5 figure range, a lot in the 4 figure range and some in the 6 figure range. A 70 ft motor yacht is well into the 7 or 8 figure range.

Being out of compliance on a critical safety issue, maintaining the fire suppression system, would certainly raise questions about the boat owner's sense of responsibility. I suspect that in addition to being a violation of the policies conditions it is a violation of CG regulations. I wonder if the real issue was how to get rid of this guy as a policy holder and this was the cheapest way to do that. It also sends a message to boat owners, that we have a burden to maintain and operate our boats safely, Clearly the guy in the article was not as the fire suppression system had not been maintained. There is a comment on the article from a surveyor who says installed fire suppression systems are seldom maintained and serviced as required because of the expense. The insurance company sent a message.

The same issue can arise if the boat is being operated outside of the designated waters, such as sailing to the Bahamas without an endorsement or being in a prohibited hurricane zone and having a non-storm related claim. And then there are the vague terms. My policy covers the "inland and coastal waters of the US and Canada" they don't define coastal waters, is 5, 20, 100 or 200 miles? Or is it determined by the departure and arrival ports?

 

[shemandr]

Kinda reinforces the general opinion that the insurance guys are sometimes crooks in nice suits. ...

The suits aren't always that nice.

 

[Calif. Ted]

Mine spells out coastal as "75" nautical miles, don't know if that is some standard or they just pulled it out of their neither region.

 

[kloudie1]

Further reading of the original attachment .. the boat was in a collision and run aground... We don't know the circumstances of either "problem" but the insurance company may have been reacting to a series of previous incidents and claims from poor boating skills?? They found a contractual way to get the thing off their books??

 

[dlochner]

Further reading of the original attachment .. the boat was in a collision and run aground... We don't know the circumstances of either "problem" but the insurance company may have been reacting to a series of previous incidents and claims from poor boating skills?? They found a contractual way to get the thing off their books??

That would be my thought.

 

[Captain Larry-DH]

Key phase in the article is "the boat’s fire suppression system was out of compliance under terms of the policy".
Bottom line - read your policy.

 

[Kayakeur]

Fire extinguishers;

I took one of mine about 10 years old, needle in green, to my local fire dept. One of the older firemen there told me unofficially to whack it with a piece of board, sides and bottom. Repeatedly. That loosens the powder. That what happens to the powder inside is it cakes up, apparently not too solidly but enough that when you pull the trigger the powder doesn't come out, youre just releasing gas pressure. That might not satisfy an insurance company but it might make it work to put out a fire, And if you had decided not to replace because it cost too much this is free and takes only a few minutes and might be a lot better than not. You're captain.

 

[twodzusfittings]

@ Kayakeur. I was down at the boat today putting sails on and testing the motor. Then I needed to find something more to do before heading home. I remembered this thread and so followed your advice. I have three units with a gauge and one without. Whacked all of them. Boy did that feel good taking my frustrations out on a fire extinguisher. Thinking this may become a bi annual ritual, for safety reasons of course!!!!!