New Main Sail

[PhilaSailor]

Any thoughts on the main sail for the 37 cutter ? I'm buying a new main sail and considering the options. I've had about 6 main sails of different types in 35 years on my cutter 37 Alpha. All of these were used sails from Bacon Annapolis or similar. I'm getting new sails to match the major refit of the boat. Here are the options I'm considering.

Fully Battened
I really like and sailed with a Bacon of Annapolis used, fully battened main. It is easier to maintain sail shape and performance.

Loose Foot
I've sailed with a loose foot and a slider foot. Sailmakers seem to always recommend a loose foot. I wonder if that is to simplify the sail. What is best for performance ? I never had a concern of loads on the boom car at the clew being stressed by a loose foot main.

Roach
The book luff for a 37C is 39'6" with 13' foot. Measurements match this. The backstay is several feet behind the back of the boom allowing for roach. I have some old main sails that seem to have about about 18" of roach. Battens hold the leech out, especially full battens. Roach large enough to touch the backstay are out due to wear.

Thoughts ?

 

[Tally Ho]

Not a H37C owner, but a few thoughts…

I assume you have a traditional mainsail, not an in-mast furling sail. Does your boat have a topping lift? I am going to assume no, since you don’t mention it.

On my O’Day 322, I went with a full batten main, and the sail loft (North Sail in Chicago) suggested the Tides Marine Strong Track. The battens will cause a lot of pressure on the sail slides/mast and the Strong Track includes a HDPE mast track and some nice, heavy duty SS sail slides. I like the set up.

My boat had a topping lift, and the new head board would catch the TL when tacking. I asked the loft to modify it at the end of the season, but still caught a bit. I added a rigid vang and did away with the TL….all better now.

If no TL, and some extra room between the sail and back stay, I would ask the sail maker about adding some roach…as you said, not enough to touch the backstay, but what the space will allow.

I have always thought that a Hunter with a B&R rig (traditional sail) should run a full roach, flat top sail !

Greg

 

[shemandr]

The 37 C isn't a B&R rig - right? It is a real cutter rig and so not optimized for upwind sailing. Is the OP's shoal draft? If so there's only so much sail shape can do to improve upwind performance.
Full length battens are nice but if they come with the need to add a Strong Track and maybe a rigid vang, isn't it like pushing a stone uphill? There are those who say that full length battens make a sail look like it's trimmed well even if it isn't. I believe they extend the life of the sail.
Loose footed main sails are the norm now. I think you'd have to pay extra to have a bolt rope and slugs on the foot. I would consider that if I was going to sail offshore a lot.
I have seen numerous examples of someone getting a roachy main and it getting caught on the backstay during tacks. It is a PITA. I would tell the sail maker no thanks.
If the OP is sailing offshore I would consider a third set of reef points.
As is stated in the OP the owner has had 6 mainsails in 35 years for this boat. I think he knows much more about the boat and sails than I do.

 

[dlochner]

There is little to recommend adding a shelf and foot to the main, more cloth, more weight, more labor, and more friction when adjusting the outhaul for little or no gain. Loose footed is the way to go and it doesn't catch rain water.

My main has 2 full upper battens and 2 partial battens. This helps shape the sail at the top and allows for better control over the shape of the lower section of the sail. With all full battens it is easy to over trim the sail, it looks good no matter if it is trimmed well. Full battens do make it easier to flake a large sail or for it to drop into a stack pack, I'd rather have a more efficient sail.

A rigid vang lets you get rid of the topping lift which will allow a little more roach, you're correct you don't want to be dragging the sail across the backstay on every tack. At the dock, the main halyard serves as a topping lift.

For those of us at a certain age, a Tides track makes sail raising easier along with an electric winch handle.

 

[kappykaplan]

At the dock, the main halyard serves as a topping lift.

That's what I use.

 

[PhilaSailor]

Thanks for way more replies than I expected. The discussion is helpful. I'm double checking measurements and hope to place an order for the main sail today or tomorrow to be ready for the season.

Topping Lift - I have TP, but have an adjuster to loosen this after the sail is raised. This gets it out of the way of possible roach at the top. The sail is raised from the mast where the topping lift adjuster is along with the out haul.

Rigid Vang - Separate project than ordering a main. I've never competed with a vang on a PHRF boat. I've added so many upgrades in the last 2 years, maybe I need one. The new traveler holds down the boom till a broad reach. If I'm on a several hour downwind tack, it is time for the asymmetrical spinnaker. A vang seems required for a combo halyard/topping lift system right ?

SS Sail Track - Don't really have an issue raising the conventional main, though easier is always better. Adding a better sail track is a separate project than the new main for me.

Full Battens - I sailed a few years with full battens but see a comment that the sail always looks trimmed even if not. This thought is all over online. I'm in for 2 top, full battens and deep battens on the bottom. A goal is to sail faster in lighter breezes for the 18,000 lb Cutter 37. I added a new Garhauer traveler and main sheet rig that makes sail trim not require a winch. It is time I step up sail trim to sail faster with partial battens down low. I also have running backstays to tweak main sail trim.

Batten Force - The batten pockets I had at the mast were substantial on my last full batten sail. There were no signs of extra wear.

Batten Wear Downwind - There is extra wear where the batten pockets can touch the shrouds down wind. This is not going to tear the sail, but leaves a mark even without battens. The 37 Cutter does not have swept spreaders. The running backstays are moved clear downwind or on a broad reach.

Loose Foot - LF are current wisdom. Do older boats like the 37 Cutter have a tracked foot for better main sail load distribution. If there is that much load, even when pointing high, I'd be reefed. I'm in for the loose foot on this new main.

 

[dlochner]

Loose Foot - LF are current wisdom. Do older boats like the 37 Cutter have a tracked foot for better main sail load distribution. If there is that much load, even when pointing high, I'd be reefed. I'm in for the loose foot on this new main.

There are probably several reasons older boats have footed mains. The biggest is "we've always done it that way." Prior to the days of synthetic sail material, spreading the vertical load across the foot made sense, cotton and linen are not as strong as Dacron. Thirty or forty years ago someone recognized that a loose footed sail made more sense and they have gradually become the norm today.

 

[PhilaSailor]

Thanks Dave, good info. You answered the loose foot question.

Any thoughts on spending more for more expensive sail cloth ?

Any thoughts on how much more life and performance a triradial gives versus a cross cut ?

 

[dlochner]

Thanks Dave, good info. You answered the loose foot question.

Bear in mind, this was just an educated guess.

Any thoughts on spending more for more expensive sail cloth ?

Any thoughts on how much more life and performance a triradial gives versus a cross cut ?

Always start with the intended use. Are you crossing an ocean? Daysailing on the Delaware River and Bay (yuck!)? Coastal cruising? How long do you plan to keep the boat? etc. etc. The intended use will guide to the right decision about cloth and cut. We recently bought new sails, let me use that as an example of the decision making process.

We planned to take a long coastal cruise from the Great Lakes, out the St. Lawrence and then down to the Bahamas. We needed new sails. We also wanted to reduce the headsail from a 150 to a 135 for two main reasons, it would be easier to manage and we could carry it in higher wind speeds before reefing.

Reducing the jib size would also affect performance in lighter air. On Lake Ontario we are often blessed (?) with light winds, so we did not want to give up too much performance in those conditions. We opted for a tri-radial cut. It would give better performance than a cross cut sail off setting some of the performance loss due to the smaller size. Tri-radial sails also hold their shape longer than cross cut sails.

Cloth choice was next, we looked a high tech cloth, a medium tech, and woven Dacron. We opted for a polyester laminate, Contender CDX. This cloth offered better shape, performance, and durability than traditional polyester cloth at a lower expense then a high tech laminate sail.

We also expected to spend more time in heavier wind than normal, so we opted for a medium weight cloth, not as heavy as we might use crossing oceans and heavier than we would need for Lake Ontario Sailing.

Hope this helps.

 

[PhilaSailor]

To round out the thoughts on the main for a 37c. I went with a loose footed main with 4 battons, the top 2 are full, the bottom 2 are partial. The performance of the boat is noticeably better. Part of this is much easier adjustment with a Garhauer traveler. The sail came with 3 dark stripes and 6 telltales on the leech all encouraging better sail trim. I've had a full batton main

Quotes from 3 sailmakers were $2500 to $3500. These prices are for sails overseas with a higher quote if made in the US. It seemed the value of the sail maker was to properly measure for the sail and to specify the details after understanding how the boat is sailed. I ended up buying a $1400 sail from FarEast Sailmakers that used the sail material in the middle of the choices. I'm very happy with the result.

In other forums mentioning Far East sails, people will mention they like the sail but measured wrong. The Far East person sent a cad drawing with lots of measurements prior to fabrication and encouraged triple checking the measurements. I used a metal 50' tape measure and a laser measurer. The clearance of the leech to the topping lift was exactly as designed on the cad drawing. I'll send the exact details and order if anyone is interested.