NMEA 2000-Help/Guidance where to start.

dkinzer · Feb 1, 2024

What interface do they speed and depth transducers have? SeaTalk1 perhaps? Raymarine sells a SeaTalk1 to SeaTalkNG converter (p/n E22158) and since SeaTalkNG is essentially NMEA 2000 but with proprietary connectors you should be able to connect that converter to an NMEA 2000 backbone.

As for AIS, there are several providers of AIS transceivers which have NMEA 2000 connectivity. I have an Em-Trak B951 transceiver which has an NMEA 2000 port which I connected to my SeaTalkNG backbone. You'll also need either a separate AIS-compatible VHF antenna or a splitter so that you can use your existing VHF antenna (which may need to be upgraded to work better with AIS).

It is unlikely, I think, that the B&G chart plotter will be able to control the EV-100 autopilot. Our boat has a Raymarine S3 course computer and ST7002 control head which communicate over SeaTalk1 and that network is connected via a converter to our SeaTalkNG backbone. Even so, the Raymarine Axiom+ MFD, also on the SeaTalkNG backbone, cannot control the auto-pilot.

So, I think you can do most of what you want except for the autopilot integration. The first step will be to decide if it makes more sense to install an NMEA 2000 backbone or a SeaTalkNG backbone. If you expect to add additional Raymarine equipment in the future it may make sense to go with the SeaTalkNG backbone.

There are some good videos on YouTube by Raymarine and others on setting up a SeaTalkNG network. I suspect that you can also find some videos on setting up an NMEA 2000 network. That would be the place that I would recommend that you begin.

dlochner · Feb 2, 2024

dkinzer said:
It is unlikely, I think, that the B&G chart plotter will be able to control the EV-100 autopilot. Our boat has a Raymarine S3 course computer and ST7002 control head which communicate over SeaTalk1 and that network is connected via a converter to our SeaTalkNG backbone. Even so, the Raymarine Axiom+ MFD, also on the SeaTalkNG backbone, cannot control the auto-pilot.

AP controllers and radars use proprietary protocols, they only work with chart plotters from the same manufacturer. AP computers can usually take wind, speed, depth information from any source so long as it is in N2K format.

Garmin and B&G (along with its sisters Simrad and Lawrence) use standard N2K connectors, Raymarine does not. This makes it easier to integrate other devices into the network that are not available from Garmin or B&G. For example I have several tank monitors on the network, a barometer, a data recorder, and an AIS on my N2K network that integrate seamlessly.

@dkinzer advice to select the AP and radar first, as that will drive which Chartplotter you'll buy. I'm not that familiar with the EV-100, is it a wheel pilot or below decks? At 36' your boat is at the upper limits of what a wheel pilot can handle, it should be fine in most conditions on the Chesapeake, however, if going off shore it will be straining. A below deck pilot is a better choice as it will have more power and be more responsive.

As for radars, both the US Marines and the Houthi Rebels are using Simrad Halo radars.

Houthi Rebels 'Endorse' a Simrad Small-Craft Radar; Marines Take the Hint

Halo24 Becomes Tool for Disruption of Global Commerce

loosecannon.substack.com

A good reliable source for information about marine electronics is Panbo.

Panbo

The Marine Electronics Hub

panbo.com

dlochner · Feb 2, 2024

wpatch said:
Thanks again for your help, some background I am in IT, understand complex networking

NMEA 2000 is based on Canbus, the same networking in your car. It has a backbone and drop cables to the devices. For most of us the network is pretty simple.

Here's a guide from Maretron. You should have no difficulty understanding it with your background.

https://www.maretron.com/products/pdf/Network%20Installation%20Guide.pdf

dkinzer · Feb 2, 2024

dlochner said:
NMEA 2000 is based on Canbus, the same networking in your car.

And, SeaTalkNG is just NMEA 2000 with proprietary, color coded connectors. As I mentioned I have a SeaTalkNG backbone but I have two NMEA 2000 devices connected to it - an AIS transceiver and a Wi-Fi gateway/router.

BarryL · Feb 2, 2024

Hey,

Regarding autopilots and chartplotters, I would select the chart plotter I like best and I would select the autopilot I like best. Maybe that would be from the same manufacturer or maybe not. It really doesn't matter. The ONLY advantage of using the same manufacturer is that then you can ACTIVATE and CONTROL the autopilot from the chart plotter screen. Is that important to you? It isn't to me.

My boat has B&G plotter, wind sensor, and displays, Raymarine autopilot, Airmar depth, speed temp nmea 2000 transducer, and a vesper AIS transceiver. All are connected on a NMEA 2000 bus. All share data.

When I want to use my autopilot I have to use the Raymarine AP control head to engage the pilot. I can steer to a heading, to a waypoint, or to a wind angle. The only thing I can't do it engage to change the pilot from the B&G plotter.

My boat came with a Raymarine remote control unit for the Autopilot. I tested it a few times. It works. I never remember to put it in my pocket when I'm on board.

Last point - if you want a wheel pilot AP Raymarine is the only game in town (for a wheel pilot that integrates to other device). if you want a below deck pilot you have many more choices. Below deck are superior in every way, but much MUCH more money to but and install. I had the Raymarine Evo 100 wheel pilot on my C&C 110 (36', 11,000 lbs displacement). The pilot was fine for mild and medium conditions, but could not handle the boat when the breeze and seas were up. The below deck pilot on my current boat does a much better job but does struggle downwind in a blow.

Good luck,
Barry

dlochner · Feb 2, 2024

wpatch said:
Having the charter-plotter driving the autopilot probably not that big a deal for me either, but it would be kind of cool to do.

The remote control is cool. Put the remote in your pocket on cold days and you can drive the boat.

One huge advantage to using the CP to control the AP is cost, at least in the B&G line, there is no need to have a separate controller, the controller runs from $300 to $660 depending on how fancy you want to get.

Tally Ho · Feb 2, 2024

I had a bit of a mish-mash of electronic ps on my O’Day 322…Raymarine AP, Garmin CP, Tac Tic wireless wind, older depth/speed log.

I added a new VHF radio with AIS, and it supported N2K, as did the Garmin CP. That sort of started my network…
it gave me AIS from the radio to display on my CP, and it allowed me to pass GPS coordinates from the CP to the radio for SOS broadcasting in an emergency.

My wind instrament was a challenge, until someone here suggested a wireless interface from Tac Tic…he happened to have a few used ones and sent me one to try. It worked! And all of a sudden I could get wind info (through NMEA 0183) to my Chart plotter and my AP. This was huge for me.

I cannot get speed and depth from my old transducers, but the CP has its own depth and SOG, so I don’t miss those too much. And I am on Lake Michigan so I don’t have to calculate currents for or against me.

I don’t (yet) have the AP and CP talking enough to have the AP follow a route….but I don’t really cruise, so I don’t miss that feature.

My advice, unless you want to change all of the instruments , go at it a piece at a time and see what works. There are a lot more options for converters these days.

My next project is to install a Raspberry Pi computer with a NMEA2000 board that also has NMEA0183 interface…not sure what all it will provide me, but a replica of my CP below decks at a minimum….maybe a way to convert all NMEA0183 to N2K.

Greg

dkinzer · Feb 6, 2024

wpatch said:
So I could get a converter to sea talk ng and then another to get it to nmea2000

You don't need a converter, per se, to go between STng and N2K. Raymarine offers two types of backbone adapter cables - one with an N2K male connection and one with an N2K female connection (see photo). These allow the STng backbone to connect to the N2K backbone.

There are also STng spur cables of several lengths with a male or female N2K connector on one end allowing connection of an N2K device to the STng backbone. the ones with a male N2K connector are p/n A06078, A06076 and A06046 while the ones with a female N2K connector are p/n A06079, A06045, A06075 and A06080 (which has a right angle STng connector).

Scott T-Bird · Feb 6, 2024

wpatch said:
Ok made some good progress over the weekend and think I have a plan

So, my depth transducer and speed paddle are pretty old Raymarine. (3 prong pretty sure its Sea Talk 1). So I could get a converter to sea talk ng and then another to get it to nmea2000 .....OR

If I get a new 3 in one sensor, B&G DST 810 Depth/Speed/Temperature Smart Sensor Transducer - 000-15735-001 | Defender. I replace the raymarine speed paddle with that, keep the older depth. And swap out the raymarine speed gauge for a b&g triton 2.

So next challenges are:

1) Finding the current nmea backbone. (Not in the pods, suspect it's between the mast and the cockpit .
2) Splicing power from my vulcan to the triton
3) Getting the triton seated nicely.

(Going to kick auto-pilot remote and ais for later.) Will keep you posted. Thanks again for the help!

will

A couple of things ... do you have separate speed and depth transducers for your RM instruments (which models do you have)? Replacing the speed ducer with a new B&G DST 810 is a good way to go. You will find that you can't just replace the ducer, you will also have to replace the thru-hull fitting. The good news is that you probably won't have to enlarge the hole. On mine, and others I know of, we cut out the thru-hull because otherwise it would be very difficult to remove undamaged anyway. Once the hole was cleaned up, the new thru hull (it comes with the ducer package) fits perfectly in the hole. You just need to apply sealant and tighten her down.

As I may have done, DO NOT plug in and run the ducer until it is in the water. Apparently, it requires water to keep it cool when transmitting its signal and can burn out if you run it dry. I may have ruined one or it was defective. I still have it under my desk and almost a year later it still smells like burnt electronics. The instructions don't provide any warning! I really am not sure if I caused the damage or not (I don't think I caused the damage), but I did install it while the boat was on stands, so I'm not entirely sure! :facepalm:

I ended up just buying another B&G transducer ($$$$$) so I could get it in as I needed it immediately and I never followed up to get a warranty replacement.

I'm not sure what you mean by splicing power from the Vulcan to the triton, but there is a protocol for this. A separate power cable has to go directly to the chartplotter (not thru the network). The Triton display gets power from the network via a power cable into the network backbone. The instructions cover this. I put the chartplotter and instrument network on separate power circuits anyway, but that may just be me.

If you have a separate depth transducer, then I think it makes sense to just keep it in place and keep your old display, just as an independent back-up. You never can have too much depth back-up in our shallow waters!

Ward H · Feb 6, 2024

wpatch said:
So, my depth transducer and speed paddle are pretty old Raymarine. (3 prong pretty sure its Sea Talk 1). So I could get a converter to sea talk ng and then another to get it to nmea2000 .....OR

And another couple of things.
Your old transducers are not SeaTalk1. I don't believe any US transducers are. Their dedicated display sends a signal / voltage to the transducer and the display interprets the return signal into data like speed, depth and wind speed/direction.
Now, the dedicated display may send out a NMEA0183 or SeaTalk 1 signal but the transducers do not.
If you want to replace the display units you can install a Raymarine iTC5 box. The transducers can connect to the iTC5 and it will interpret the signals, convert the signals to Seatalkng and put it on your SeaTalkng or NMEA2000 backbone.
But the iTC5 needs a Raymarine i70 display to calibrate and set offsets.

wpatch said:
If I get a new 3 in one sensor, B&G DST 810 Depth/Speed/Temperature Smart Sensor Transducer - 000-15735-001 | Defender. I replace the raymarine speed paddle with that, keep the older depth. And swap out the raymarine speed gauge for a b&g triton 2.

You may run into issues/interference running two depth transducers at the same time if they are near each other.

Scott T-Bird · Feb 7, 2024

Ward H said:
You may run into issues/interference running two depth transducers at the same time if they are near each other.

Huh! I did not know this ... My new DST 810 is right next to the old depth transducer (within about 6", I think) ... and they would both be powered on at the same time through the network ... I suppose that could be a problem (I haven't connected the old one back up yet)! Maybe I'll just have to leave it in - unconnected - as a plug!

jssailem · Feb 7, 2024

Oh the magic of Wiki… Here in a simple page may be more than you want need to know about sonar. It does give strong support to Ward’s statement… Multiple sonar transducer transmissions will screw up your depth detection…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonar_signal_processing

That little black box that tells you depth is really processing the return signal. The ability to display a fish at 20ft and a rock at 25 ft is a complex math problem. Fortunately it is all done for us. no slide rule needed.

dlochner · Feb 7, 2024

The issue is the sonar frequency, the closer the frequencies are, the greater the chance of interference. And then there are harmonics. The best practice is to avoid having 2 depth sounders near each other. The Navico forward facing scanner requires any traditional depth sounders to be at least 2 feet away from the forward scan unit. This is due to the CHIRP pulse the scanner uses, it sends out a multifrequency ping and measures the time each frequency takes to return, this allows it to paint a picture of the sea bottom ahead of the boat. Conceptually it is very similar to the modern digital radar which uses radio frequencies rather than acoustics.

BarryL · Feb 7, 2024

Hey,

SOME transducers can operate at various frequencies. I have two transducers on my boat. One is an Airmar DST. That works fine to display a depth number. But i also want to be able to 'see' the bottom. So I bought and installed another transducer that supports by B&G chartplotter sonar display. The DST operates at 235 KHz, The SONAR unit runs at 83KHz. My B&G Triton can display the depth number and I can use the fishfinder screen on the plotter to see if the bottom is sand, rock, etc.

Barry

Scott T-Bird · Feb 7, 2024

BarryL said:
Hey,

SOME transducers can operate at various frequencies. I have two transducers on my boat. One is an Airmar DST. That works fine to display a depth number. But i also want to be able to 'see' the bottom. So I bought and installed another transducer that supports by B&G chartplotter sonar display. The DST operates at 235 KHz, The SONAR unit runs at 83KHz. My B&G Triton can display the depth number and I can use the fishfinder screen on the plotter to see if the bottom is sand, rock, etc.

Barry

What is the SONAR unit that you have? Is it the ForwardScan? Does it protrude thru the hull or is it flush?

NMEA 2000-Help/Guidance where to start.

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SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John

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