New Electronics Networking Help

[gouldx]

Hi all—

I’m in the process of (maybe) adding a dedicated chart plotter/MFD, and could use some help figuring out the networking portion of the installation.

I’ve been using an iPad with Navionics, but have found that the iPad will not reliably read location data from my AIS transponder over WiFi. I’ve been relying on my iPhone instead, but it’s a bandaid, not a solution.

I’m interested installing a B&G Vulcan 9, but my current setup was installed before I owned the boat, and it’s a bit of a grab bag. I’m not quite sure of the best route forward for getting all the equipment to communicate in at least a rudimentary way.

Here’s what I have:

• NASA Clipper Depth and Log displays connected directly to their corresponding transponders (thru-hull depth, in-hull EM speed). Circa 2017. Not currently networked.
• Pelagic Standard Tiller Autopilot. Not currently networked.
• SeaTalk Backbone
  • Raymarine ST60 Wind Transducer
  • SiTex Class B AIS Transponder
    • SH GX2200 VHF AIS/GPS
  • Raymarine ST70+ MFD (To be replaced)

Since my boat is on a river, navigation and depth data are my priorities, but I’d love to get the whole setup to be more integrated with the Vulcan, once it’s in, and I have a few questions:

A) Is there a SeaTalk to NMEA 2000 cable that would connect my current SeaTalk backbone to the Vulcan, or is there a different/better way to get the new MFD connected?
B) I’m not 100% sure what protocol the NASA Marine transducers are using (I’m guessing NMEA 0183). It’s not essential that they feed to the new MFD, but it would be nice. Would that likely require a couple Antisense NGW-1 units (or similar), or does it make more sense to just replace those transducers with something newer at the next haul-out?
C) Am I grossly misunderstanding how this all works (it’s certainly possible!)?

Any help or recommendations before I go spend a bunch of money would be much appreciated.

Collin

 

[curtdo]

You have a number of things going on. First, do you want to end up with a Raymarine physical hardware network or a NMEA 2000 open hardware network? Do you then want to talk NMEA 2000 or 0183 language? I think make these decisions first based on current and new devices to be included. Then look into actual connections layout

 

[gouldx]

You have a number of things going on. First, do you want to end up with a Raymarine physical hardware network or a NMEA 2000 open hardware network? Do you then want to talk NMEA 2000 or 0183 language? I think make these decisions first based on current and new devices to be included. Then look into actual connections layout

Good questions. I don’t know if I have the answers. I’d like to get the most out of the hardware I currently have, while making slow upgrades as time and budget allow. I’m not dedicated to Raymarine, it’s just what came with the boat. I suppose the longer term answer is that I’d like to move toward NMEA 2000, so that I have more choices in upgrades, but I’m not really in a position to convert everything at once.

Thanks!

Collin

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Based on my experience, in converting from Sea Talk and NMEA 0183 to NMEA 2000, I think it is simpler and less costly to leave the systems relatively independent until you intend to replace and upgrade. The conversions and communication instruments are available, but they are expensive and require a lot of research to get it done so they integrate. I wasted money on various cables, conversion kits and whatnot trying to integrate my older systems into my new Zeus CP. In the end, I purchased new instruments and transducers (NMEA 2000) for plug and play simplicity. I have new B&G MFD instruments, but I also have the RM i50 depth and speed instruments and i60 wind instrument that are basically STNG (NMEA 2000) instruments receiving data from Sea Talk transducers - confusing, right? So far, my i60 wind instrument is working off the new wireless airmar wind transducer that I installed. The i50 depth and speed instruments are powered up but not reading any data from the new airmar DST 810 transducer. I haven't figured this one out yet. I think both these instruments must be looking for the data from the sea talk transducers that are no longer in place. I should have connectivity to the new transducer simply with the STNG cables, I think. I put these older instruments at the nav station in the salon right now, so they haven't been critical.

Good luck with your progress!

 

[jssailem]

Welcome @gouldx to the forum. I see you have posted in the Yamaha forum. You have wisely asked this query in the "All Sailors" forum as the subject is definitely not "brand" specific.

First some questions.
Have you already bought the "B&G Vulcan 9"?... this determines the options you have.

If I had a "Raymarine" Seatalk network it is simpler to add a MFD (multi functional display - chart plotter) that uses the same system I have already started.

If not then yes you will need to buy wiring that will connect the B&G plotter to the SeatalkNG network. It becomes a wiring problem. They may parts that do the trick.

If not the Axiom 9 MDF can directly connect to your Seatalk network and the gauges will talk to each other. Either using 0183 (seatalk version) or SeatalkNG (the Raymarine NMEA 2000 variant). It is always suggested that you keep your hardware in the same family. Not impossible to cross marry... just sometimes a bit of an issue.

Raymarine makes a unit (ITC-5) that takes 0183 data like sonar signals and outputs the data on SeatalkNG. A member like @Ward H is very helpful in dealing with this issue.

Good luck. Let us know if you are still thinking about buying the MFD or have already made the purchase and are trying to recover.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

The adaptor between STNG and devicenet (NMEA) is very simple and easy to obtain. STNG and NMEA 2000 are the same language ... the only difference is the plug configuration. I've bought the male and female adaptors (depending upon which sides of the backbone you connect). I will suggest that you make any adaptors part of the backbone, not on the spurs.

Raymarine SeaTalk NG to NMEA 2000 Adapter Cable

The Raymarine SeaTalk NG to NMEA 2000 Adapter Cable (A06045) is a female adapter cable that connects SeaTalk NG products to NMEA 2000. Features: Female Adapter Cable Applications: SeaTalk NG to NMEA 2000 Function: Connects

defender.com

 

[gouldx]

I appreciate the responses!

@Scott T-Bird Sounds like you have a grab bag of protocols as well. I can definitely see the appeal of staying in-brand when possible; I just wish Raymarine didn't have to do something as silly as changing the pin configuration of an otherwise open standard. Kind of turns me off, though maybe I should get over it.

@jssailem No purchases yet. I'm hoping to make one soon, but figured I would check in here for advice before spending a bunch of money.

I did take a look at the both the Axiom and the Vulcan at West Marine the other day. Maybe it was just the specific display device I was using, but the Axiom felt sluggish and underpowered, whereas the Vulcan felt very responsive and the sailing-specific features looked interesting. I'd be curious if anyone has similar impressions.

This all makes me think that going Raymarine equates to a more limited, but less complicated upgrade path, while going with the B&G MFD would be more complex/expensive, but potentially more to to my liking. As long as I know either path could work and not cause my boat and/or head to explode, then I call that a win!

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I don't think you need to worry about the pin protocol between RM and devicenet as long as you upgrade to NMEA 2000 electronics. The adaptors between the 2 are not a problem. In fact the smaller plug that RM provides is easier to deal with when feeding the cables. I think the more complicated issues are converting NMEA 0183 and Sea Talk instruments. If you were to integrate B&G chartplotter with your i70 displays and new transducers, this is not a problem at all. It's plug and play. If your wheel pilot is a new RM using NMEA 2000, it's plug and play with a B&G chartplotter as far as I can tell.

 

[Ward H]

This became a long post. Sorry.

I'd like to offer some clarifications, some of which have already been stated.

1. Airmar makes almost all the transducers used by the various instrument manufactures. I don't know if this applies to NASA or not.
Transducers do not use send NMEA 0183 data to their display instruments. They are dumb devices that are driven by the display. The display sends a signal, and or power, to the transducer which sends a signal back to the display. The display or other device converts it into the proper NMEA protocol.
Note - There are newer transducers that are true SMART transducers that do connect directly to a NMEA 2000 network. They are quite pricey.

2. SeaTalkng uses the same NMEA 2000 data protocol as an "open" NMEA network.

3. The advantage of RMs network is the ease of it's plug and play cables. Cables are color coded. White for Spur cables, used to connect devices to the backbone and Blue for the backbone cables. Devices and connectors are also color coded so White goes into White sockets and Blue goes into Blue sockets.
Disadvantage is the cables are pre made whereas NMEA network cable can be bought in lengths and cut to length and terminated by users.
IMHO, the NMEA network cables and connectors are more difficult to make up and connect properly. IE: The same cable cable can be used as a backbone cable or to connect a device to the backbone. Then it is a "drop" cable. Some devices are made to terminate a backbone, some are made to connect to a backbone.
I found RM's STng network much easier to install as a newbie than trying to figure out the ins and outs of the NMEA open system.

4. SeaTalkng to NMEA Devicenet cables are readily available.

Now to your questions.
A) Is there a SeaTalk to NMEA 2000 cable that would connect my current SeaTalk backbone to the Vulcan, or is there a different/better way to get the new MFD connected?
I know RM has a SeaTalk (0183) to SeaTalkng (2000) converter. Sounds like the NGW-1 you mentioned may do this but I don't know enough about it.

B) I’m not 100% sure what protocol the NASA Marine transducers are using (I’m guessing NMEA 0183). It’s not essential that they feed to the new MFD, but it would be nice. Would that likely require a couple Antisense NGW-1 units (or similar), or does it make more sense to just replace those transducers with something newer at the next haul-out?
I very much doubt the NASA transducers are using 0183 as I explained above. Since the NASA instruments were not connected to the SeaTalk network it's doubtful they could be done now.

C) Am I grossly misunderstanding how this all works (it’s certainly possible!)?
No, you have a handle on it but the details do get complicated.

This all makes me think that going Raymarine equates to a more limited, but less complicated upgrade path, while going with the B&G MFD would be more complex/expensive, but potentially more to to my liking. As long as I know either path could work and not cause my boat and/or head to explode, then I call that a win!

Good assessment of the two options except I don't feel that RM is more limited.
If you want a modern AP connected to a modern network, Raymarine has one.
If you want an easy to install network RM has it. Cables and connectors are a little pricer.
If you want the lowest cost for installing a network and are willing work out the complications, go with the open NMEA 2000 system.
Don't base your NMEA200 network on one brand of instrument or chart plotter. If it can connect to a NMEA Network it will work with either network. Then it's just a matter of cables.

So far you have two standalone systems and one networked system. The standalone most likely will not work with a new network system.

Consider this plan.
Install a RM STng starter network.
You can then connect your current ST network to the STng network.
As you upgrade your instruments that are on the ST network you will connect them directly to the STng network.
The Vulcan can be easily connected to the STng network.
When you are ready to upgrade your AP the RM EV-100 will connect to your network. It can read, use and display the data on the network.

You mentioned replacing the ST60 display. You will need to replace it with another display that will work with your wind transducer and calibrate it.
Or
Replace it with a RM i70 display and add an iTC5 converter. Connect your wind transducer to the iTC5 and it will convert the wind data and put it on the STng network. You will calibrate the wind transducer via the i70 display.
Now all of your instruments can see and or use the wind data.

Your depth and speed transducers may also be able to connect to the network via the iTC5. If not upgrade to the Airmar transducers and they will.

The i70 has multiple screens you can program to display almost all the data on your network.

One last note. B&G chart plotters do have more useful features for the sailor than the Axiom. The Axiom is making headway with its sailing features but B&G is the forerunner. You pay for this.

All depends on the type of sailing you do. If you want the best sailing features on your screen, go with the B&G. If you want to display your depth, speed and heading over your navigation screen, the Axiom will do it well at a lower price.

 

[jviss]

I had never heard of the NASA instruments. I just looked at the manual for the Clipper depth, and it makes no mention at all of any kind of networking, except having an output for a display repeater.

 

[jviss]

The Navico family of Simrad/Lowrance/B&G have a proprietary cabling system much like Raymarine. I think the B&G cable can go through a smaller hole than RM when you're fishing wires. Price is comparable. There are Simnet to NMEA200 cables available.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

The Navico family of Simrad/Lowrance/B&G have a proprietary cabling system much like Raymarine. I think the B&G cable can go through a smaller hole than RM when you're fishing wires. Price is comparable. There are Simnet to NMEA200 cables available.

No, B&G is all NMEA 2000 now. Wasn't simnet their proprietary cable that is now obsolete? It went the same way as Sea Talk.

 

[jviss]

No, B&G is all NMEA 2000 now. Wasn't simnet their proprietary cable that is now obsolete? It went the same way as Sea Talk.

Simnet is their proprietary cabling and topology recommendation system for their NMEA2000 network, just as SeaTalkNG is RM's proprietary cabling system for their NMEA2000 networking.

It could well be that B&G have abandoned Simnet, I don't know, but Simnet is what my boat has for the physical layer, and components are still available. All of the cables and giblets are still on their website. (I just bought a Simnet to Micro-C adapter cable; it plugs directly into one of my Simnet "Multi-Joiner" hubs and then to a standard NMEA2K device I have.) So, Simnet is only a cabling/physical layer thing.

I have looked into wiring with Micro-C, but you'd have to make huge holes to snake connectorized cables, or field terminate the Micro-C connectors, which is neither easy nor inexpensive.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

A

I have looked into wiring with Micro-C, but you'd have to make huge holes to snake connectorized cables, or field terminate the Micro-C connectors, which is neither easy nor inexpensive.

All my new B&G components have Micro-C connectors now. And, yes, the connectors are large. I just ran the cables for the Bluetooth antennae (for the wireless wind ducer) and the external GPS antennae through the deck and cut off one end of each cable to make a field connection to avoid making a huge hole (a smaller hole was made instead). The field connections weren't particularly difficult to make but they are expensive.

 

[jviss]

A

All my new B&G components have Micro-C connectors now. And, yes, the connectors are large. I just ran the cables for the Bluetooth antennae (for the wireless wind ducer) and the external GPS antennae through the deck and cut off one end of each cable to make a field connection to avoid making a huge hole (a smaller hole was made instead). The field connections weren't particularly difficult to make but they are expensive.

Whose connectors did you use? Did you have to solder the wires?

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Maretron Micro/Mid Field Attachable Connector - Male - FA-CM-ST

The Maretron Micro / Mid Field Attachable Male Connector are used to make field connections to bulk cable. Features: The color-coded screw terminals match the individual wire colors found within the bulk cable for error-free field installation Co

defender.com

Maretron Female Micro/Mid Field Attachable Connector - FA-CF-ST

The The Maretron Micro / Mid Field Attachable Female Connector allows you to make field connections to bulk cable. Features: The color-coded screw terminals match the individual wire colors found within the bulk cable for error-free field installatio

defender.com

I didn't solder the wires. I see no point in that.

 

[jviss]

Maretron Micro/Mid Field Attachable Connector - Male - FA-CM-ST

The Maretron Micro / Mid Field Attachable Male Connector are used to make field connections to bulk cable. Features: The color-coded screw terminals match the individual wire colors found within the bulk cable for error-free field installation Co

defender.com

Maretron Female Micro/Mid Field Attachable Connector - FA-CF-ST

The The Maretron Micro / Mid Field Attachable Female Connector allows you to make field connections to bulk cable. Features: The color-coded screw terminals match the individual wire colors found within the bulk cable for error-free field installatio

defender.com

I didn't solder the wires. I see no point in that.

Thanks.

Maretron has a great reputation. I'm personally not a big fan of screw terminals, but they apparently work. Did you use any thread locker?

I've seen Micro-C connectors with solder-cup terminals, I think I might prefer them.

They all seem to be about the same price.

 

[gouldx]

Thanks everyone—this has been very helpful.

My apologies for the slow uptake, but let me try revising the description of my current setup, and see if I understand the possibilities/recommendations:

Currently Standalone:

• NASA Marine Clipper Depth & Log.
  • Will stay standalone, and would require full replacement for future integration.
• Pelagic Tiller Autopilot.
  • Currently standalone, which is fine, but could read NMEA 0183 wind data with a conversion unit, such as an Actisense NGW-1 connected to SeaTalk NG or NMEA 2000 backbone.

Currently Connected to SeaTalk (NG?) Backbone:

• RM ST60 Wind Transducer.
  • Currently feeds data to RM ST70+ Display via the backbone, but sounds like it would require a converter, such as the RM iTC5 to feed data to a newer MFD.
• RM ST70+ MFD.
  • Currently reads wind data, but no positioning/navigation.
• SiTex AIS Transponder & SH VHF
  • Connected to backbone via Actisense NGW-1 STNG (NMEA 0183 - 2000 converter with STNG connector style), but does not appear to be delivering data to ST70+ MFD.
  • Does have a remote (wired) GPS antenna and can send positioning data via WiFi.

My priorities (in order of importance):

1. Have a reliable navigation display to replace the unreliable AIS WiFi to iPad w/ Navionics setup, and have wind data fed to the new display (would need to remove/replace the existing display for space).
2. Have a good networking foundation for future upgrades.
3. Get Speed & Depth data to the MFD.
4. Get wind data to the Pelagic Autopilot.

Given the above, it seems my boat is already equipped with the basics of a SeaTalk NG style network, and it would make the most sense to continue to build off that in this order:

1. Start with the MFD to gain reliable navigation. Either B&G Vulcan w/ the proper conversion cable/adapter, or the RM Axiom, which, if I understand correctly, should work with the existing cabling being routed from the SeaTalk NG backbone to the current RM ST70+ MFD, since they’re both SeaTalk NG compatible devices.
2. At the next haul-out (if I’m feeling wealthy enough), look into replacing the NASA Marine speed & depth transducers (and remove the instruments), and connect the new units to the SeaTalk NG backbone to feed data to the MFD.
3. At some point down the road, get an Actisense NGW-1 STNG (or similar) to connect the Pelagic Autopilot to the network so that it can receive wind data from SeaTalk to NMEA 0183.

Sound about right? Did I miss anything?

Thanks again!

Collin

 

[jssailem]

a reliable navigation display to replace the unreliable AIS WiFi to iPad w/ Navionics

I have used an iPad and a Laptop to get AIS data over wifi. I have used "iNAVX", Coastal Explorer, and OpenCPN. Not sure if your issue is Navionics

 

[jviss]

At the next haul-out (if I’m feeling wealthy enough), look into replacing the NASA Marine speed & depth transducers (and remove the instruments), and connect the new units to the SeaTalk NG backbone to feed data to the MFD.

You don't necessarily have to replace the transducers depending on what kind of new instruments you choose, unless you really want NMEA2000 transducers, which are kind of expensive. New instruments might just work with the old transducers, especially the depth.