alternator and wiring

[jcrews63]

I have been hesitant to approach the wiring on my boat however Marine Electricians in Toronto are like Unicorns. I want to say thanks in advance for any help and start by putting out a few things that I know and lots of things I don't know to see if I can get this further along.

last year I had many problems of very intermittent starting and starter battery issues. And house bank as well, draining too quickly over a weekend with minimal use. I did swap out my heart inverter charger with a xantrax 2000 and was methodical in its installation. To my surprise, and very uncharacteristically on my boat. I went today to unwrap it and my house bank and lights all fired up. It hasn't been plugged in since October. I know I should have pulled them for winter but was so frustrated at that point.So this is good and new batteries and charger working well.

I now think its in the alternator or the wiring harness for the alternator. Its a Hitachi LR155-20 55amp alternator.
Where I'm having trouble working my way through the problems is that this boat was built in 1997. There are lots of disconnected wires that are very hard to trace. As new things were added or rewired, old wiring was still floating around.

When I swapped out the heart inverter for the xantrax, there was only a single cable for the xantrax remote yet the heart one has that cable but also has other wires going out to what looks like a circuit board and then off in behind the bulkheads presumably to the engine or? The other confusing thing is this

I'm trying to figure out if this is redundant now. Is this independent of the heart inverter/charger that was removed?

The last question would be, can I swap out the alternator for a Balmar 80 amp, is it just plug and play or better yet, what wiring comes off the alternator and where does it typically go. The Hitachi has a wiring harness but that connection seems loose.

I know I'm bouncing around here a bit but the engine not attempting to start is definitely a wiring issue and Im not opposed to just completely replacing the alternator and wiring to and from it.

Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated. I am frustrated I haven't been able to hire someone to deal with it. I do all sorts of other mechanical but decided I would leave the wiring to the pros and its dragged on for almost a year now.
regards,
Jeff crews

 

[mermike]

That is a voltage regulator. It manages the output of the alternator to charge the batteries. It may or may not have any integration with the old inverter/charger. I doubt it, but I didn't research it very deeply. That module is pretty old and a manual for same was not immediately available on the interwebs.

You can swap out the alternator and regulator module for a Balmar 80 amp alternator and Balmar 614 or 618 voltage regulator. If everything is working you have time to research the alternatives. Do you know if your alternator is charging the batteries?

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

I now think its in the alternator or the wiring harness for the alternator. Its a Hitachi LR155-20 55amp alternator.

I have the same alt. as you on a 2GM20F and I presume your engine is a 3GM20F ? Right off the bat I can tell you, I and a hundred other people here have had the same problem with intermittent starting problems due to poor connections in the wiring harnesses. I spent several years and many hours checking the contacts and there was often something that boosted the total resistance by 1Ω so that the starter relay would not pull in. My relay requires 17A to pull in with only a pitiful 12V to push it along. Do yourself a huge favour and install a starter relay booster, aka a booster for a starter relay .

The last question would be, can I swap out the alternator for a Balmar 80 amp

As for considering an alternator upgrade, you may want to do a rough calculation of your daily electrical requirements before laying down any money. After taking a look at what I needed in Amp-hours compared to what the little Hitachi LR155-20 55amp alternator was delivering, I installed an external alternator regulator, a Balmar ARS-5, and went from the usual miserable bulk charge of 12A input to the house bank at approx. 50% SOC to a roaring :

............... 37.1A to the same house bank at approx. 50% SOC during the bulk charge. I now had Amp-hours to spare for my house load and hours of motoring.

The "Ideal Regulator" which you show may be an alternator regulator but definitely not up to today's standards.

 

[Maine Sail]

An LR 155 is internally regulated. That old regulator likely powered an alt that is no longer there…. A new Balmar alt & reg would be great..

 

[jcrews63]

Okay. Thank you everyone for your time. Now I feel Im starting to understand the potential problem better and have more confidence moving forward. Its difficult to get the right answer if you can't ask the right question.

3 years ago we couldn't start coming into port and a mechanic said it was the relay and did a temporary fix (I now believe it was an intermittent connection to the alternator)
2 years ago a different shop changed the relay, It worked for a while and then became intermittent again (still probably a connection issue down the line)

I think Im going to swap out the alternator to a Balmar 80, get the Balmar regulator and research and look into a relay booster as suggested by Ralph Johnstone.

Again, if you knew the problems this has created and the downtown I've had. The difficulty in accessing the production boat wiring AND the previous owners upgrading parts of the boat and not removing the wiring has made it all very trying to say the least.

if you can think of anything else I should look at or watch out for while undergoing this work I would be grateful for your tips and tricks.

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Take it slow, think this out on paper, and you'll get through this alive. Nothing is more frustrating than dealing with the handy work of a previous owner.
NOTHING !

 

[Johnb]

Jeff, your repeatedly state that your engine would not start so you are going to change the alternator.

That does not make sense to me. The alternator is one part of what keeps batteries charged but other than that plays no role in starting the engine.

Could you clarify your purposes and intentions.

 

[Hello Below]

I think Im going to swap out the alternator to a Balmar 80, get the Balmar regulator and research and look into a relay booster as suggested by Ralph Johnstone.

It is beyond me why boat manufacturers do not install this cheap and simple relay during production. As fitted the drop in voltage at the starter is horrendous.
I would not hurry and order any alternator until you have determined the alternator output you need based on the type of cruising you plan to do now and in the future, daily load, house battery capacity and type. Plus any other power generation that you have now or down the road such as solar.
I am not aware of a Balmar 80 Amp alternator, 70, 100 and 120 in the 6 series yes but not 80. Assuming you currently do not have a serpentine belt on your engine, the largest would be a 100Amp alternator. For the small added cost from a 70A I would certainly look at a kit like these:
Binnacle Marine
Marine Outfitters

 

[jcrews63]

Jeff, your repeatedly state that your engine would not start so you are going to change the alternator.

That does not make sense to me. The alternator is one part of what keeps batteries charged but other than that plays no role in starting the engine.

Could you clarify your purposes and intentions.

Thank you all again,

To JohnB
My reasoning for changing out the alternator and regulator is as much to do with wanting to upgrade the system AND solve the problem. I feel that the work I have upgraded myself is working as it should and I certainly have a better understanding of how and why it solved the problem. It is possible that I could pull that alternator, clean the contacts and get a new harness (that one is definitely shot and loose)rewire and it would solve the problem. Out of the old factory heart voltage regulator there are a couple wires coming from that that were snipped years ago.Its my understanding that yes they work but are fairly antiquated. I feel that with some guidance and mapping the system out as clearly as I can I will win in reliability and I will understand that potion of my system. So daunting trying to weed through the wiring on this boat. For some I suspect its purely a matter of deduction. Figuring out what's no longer in use and what's in use but failing.
the only thing I did know going into it was that its a wiring issue somewhere and thats pretty general.

 

[Johnb]

The reason I asked the question is because I went through starting problems similar to what you describe and know how awkward, frustrating and problematical it is.

The solution is to make sure that a healthy well connected 12 volts is applied to the starter solenoid, which will in turn apply it to the starter motor. If you do that your problems will go away - right now. If you don't it does not matter how beautiful you make all the other stuff, they will persist. Don't hope that they will go away by serendipitous fall out from other projects.

I solved mine by restoring the wiring and connections to original condition and keeping it that way, but if that was never all that good, then posts #3 and #8 above have excellent suggestions.

Everyone in the community is pulling for you.

 

[jcrews63]

Jeff, your repeatedly state that your engine would not start so you are going to change the alternator.

That does not make sense to me. The alternator is one part of what keeps batteries charged but other than that plays no role in starting the engine.

Could you clarify your purposes and intentions.
[
The reason I asked the question is because I went through starting problems similar to what you describe and know how awkward, frustrating and problematical it is.

The solution is to make sure that a healthy well connected 12 volts is applied to the starter solenoid, which will in turn apply it to the starter motor. If you do that your problems will go away - right now. If you don't it does not matter how beautiful you make all the other stuff, they will persist. Don't hope that they will go away by serendipitous fall out from other projects.

I solved mine by restoring the wiring and connections to original condition and keeping it that way, but if that was never all that good, then posts #3 and #8 above have excellent suggestions.

Everyone in the community is pulling for you.

I think the other reason Im keen on it was because my starter battery was dropping within an hour of motoring out from the harbour. There is a charging/connection issue for sure.Even when I was having intermittent starting problems. I'm going back down with all the new information I have today to reassess things. Its a process and I'm trying to figure it out. Everyones comments and advice here are helpful.

 

[artboas]

I have been hesitant to approach the wiring on my boat however Marine Electricians in Toronto are like Unicorns. I want to say thanks in advance for any help and start by putting out a few things that I know and lots of things I don't know to see if I can get this further along.

last year I had many problems of very intermittent starting and starter battery issues. And house bank as well, draining too quickly over a weekend with minimal use. I did swap out my heart inverter charger with a xantrax 2000 and was methodical in its installation. To my surprise, and very uncharacteristically on my boat. I went today to unwrap it and my house bank and lights all fired up. It hasn't been plugged in since October. I know I should have pulled them for winter but was so frustrated at that point.So this is good and new batteries and charger working well.

I now think its in the alternator or the wiring harness for the alternator. Its a Hitachi LR155-20 55amp alternator.
Where I'm having trouble working my way through the problems is that this boat was built in 1997. There are lots of disconnected wires that are very hard to trace. As new things were added or rewired, old wiring was still floating around.

When I swapped out the heart inverter for the xantrax, there was only a single cable for the xantrax remote yet the heart one has that cable but also has other wires going out to what looks like a circuit board and then off in behind the bulkheads presumably to the engine or? The other confusing thing is thisView attachment 216165View attachment 216165I'm trying to figure out if this is redundant now. Is this independent of the heart inverter/charger that was removed?

The last question would be, can I swap out the alternator for a Balmar 80 amp, is it just plug and play or better yet, what wiring comes off the alternator and where does it typically go. The Hitachi has a wiring harness but that connection seems loose.

I know I'm bouncing around here a bit but the engine not attempting to start is definitely a wiring issue and Im not opposed to just completely replacing the alternator and wiring to and from it.

Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated. I am frustrated I haven't been able to hire someone to deal with it. I do all sorts of other mechanical but decided I would leave the wiring to the pros and its dragged on for almost a year now.
regards,
Jeff crews

Hi there.
As a fellow Toronto boat owner, I will tell you that there are a few very competent mechanic / electricians .
I suggest you bring in a pro, and learn from them.
you might call Toronto yacht services. They know their stuff. Good luck

 

[Stu Jackson]

Jeff, as a fellow Canadian... FYI, you being new here, I have been around for a long time and have seen all the questions that can be and have been asked. Many of them are very specific, and many of them open Pandora's chest like yours did: essentially the whole can of worms about boat electrical systems. I used to answer them specifically and found myself writing books that ended up going to only one person and a few others who read that thread, and then it disappeared into the internet. I eventually took a different approach and developed this link, Electrical 101. Its introduction explains it all.

Electrical Systems 101 Electrical Systems 101


The most important thing you can do, and imho HAVE TO DO is a WIRING DIAGRAM for your boat. It is the ONLY way you can figure out what you have and what any abandoned wires may be for sure - they are disconnected at at least one end!!!

Good luck and happy hunting.

 

[jcrews63]

Jeff, as a fellow Canadian... FYI, you being new here, I have been around for a long time and have seen all the questions that can be and have been asked. Many of them are very specific, and many of them open Pandora's chest like yours did: essentially the whole can of worms about boat electrical systems. I used to answer them specifically and found myself writing books that ended up going to only one person and a few others who read that thread, and then it disappeared into the internet. I eventually took a different approach and developed this link, Electrical 101. Its introduction explains it all.

Electrical Systems 101 Electrical Systems 101


The most important thing you can do, and imho HAVE TO DO is a WIRING DIAGRAM for your boat. It is the ONLY way you can figure out what you have and what any abandoned wires may be for sure - they are disconnected at at least one end!!!

Good luck and happy hunting.

Okay, so this is a crazy amount of information but I can't thank you enough for compiling it all. Im heading down today (Saturday) to spend the day trying to map some of it out but I have already received good insight into areas I need to check regarding my non start issues.

I'll report back to everyone where I'm at and again I'm grateful for everyone chiming in with their 2 cents or the full dollar, its very helpful in a very intimidating mechanical space for me.
regards,
Jeff

 

[DaveJ]

One way to tell if your alternator is charging the batteries, take a voltage reading before you start the engine, another reading after you start. Make sure your battery charger isn’t running! Hopefully you see over 14 volts with the engine running.
Cheers

 

[chp]

I have the same alt. as you on a 2GM20F and I presume your engine is a 3GM20F ? Right off the bat I can tell you, I and a hundred other people here have had the same problem with intermittent starting problems due to poor connections in the wiring harnesses. I spent several years and many hours checking the contacts and there was often something that boosted the total resistance by 1Ω so that the starter relay would not pull in. My relay requires 17A to pull in with only a pitiful 12V to push it along. Do yourself a huge favour and install a starter relay booster, aka a booster for a starter relay .

View attachment 216166

View attachment 216167

View attachment 216169




As for considering an alternator upgrade, you may want to do a rough calculation of your daily electrical requirements before laying down any money. After taking a look at what I needed in Amp-hours compared to what the little Hitachi LR155-20 55amp alternator was delivering, I installed an external alternator regulator, a Balmar ARS-5, and went from the usual miserable bulk charge of 12A input to the house bank at approx. 50% SOC to a roaring :

View attachment 216171

............... 37.1A to the same house bank at approx. 50% SOC during the bulk charge. I now had Amp-hours to spare for my house load and hours of motoring.

The "Ideal Regulator" which you show may be an alternator regulator but definitely not up to today's standards.

Before getting into a lot of cash outlay, try this with the starter relay. I too was plagued with starter problems. Thought maybe the starter, but previous owner had just replaced it already. Maybe start button, but again previous owner had replaced it twice. I insalled the relay as in the diagram above and have never had a start issue again. The relay costs about 20 bucks. Just my take on the situation.

 

[Jim_H42]

Perhaps check the grounding wire and selinoid connections would be a good "starting" point...

 

[RoyS]

I by-passed the original start wire in the harness with a separate No.10 wire and that solved the problem. You have probably purchased a new start button already. Even though it did not help, do not throw it away. Put appropriate quick disconnect crimp connections on the short leads and use it as a remote start button at your motor when needed. I would not leave it in place, just plug it in near the starter solenoid when needed.

 

[jcrews63]

Update: thanks everyone for your insight and support. The problem is solved now and it was a combination of faulty wiring and alternator.I did finally get a professional who did exactly what he said he was going to do. He’s certified and not just a boat mechanic who “knows some stuff”. They are like unicorns in Toronto (expensive Unicorns) I slipped a AirTag in his pocket before he left.
My biggest issue when people would ask me to draw up my wiring so they could try and help was determining what was old wiring, half disconnected and half still wired up, old regulators, echo chargers, battery managers etc And where the break between house and start circuits were. He was super helpful in educating me on just how basic the start circuit is. He was able to determine the problem in about 6 minutes. He felt the boat had been wired for a move with lots of elements bypassed and rigged haphazardly. Just well enough to work perfectly the first 3yrs and just hidden enough that it didn’t set off any alarm bells (to the uneducated) For instance there were no fuses in the start circuit at all. It’s my understanding now that it can only be unfused to the starter due to its initial draw.
I also upgraded from a 55 amp alternator to an 80 amp. I didn’t want to start replacing things blindly but it is a 26yr old boat so I now have new batteries, new inverter charger, new relay and a new alternator and I’m okay with that outlay.
I will bring him back in to help me start really cleaning up the rest of the wiring and removing old equipment and wiring.
Thanks again everyone, I do really appreciate it.
Jeff

 

[Techstyle]

last year I had many problems of very intermittent starting and starter battery issues.

like somebody else said, this is a common Hunter/Yanmar issue of them using the undersized tractor harness in a Marine environment. see this Youtube video for How I fixed it. I have been running this cheap fix for 2 seasons now and it has never let me down.