Head (toilet of course) plumbing help

[bonkle]

I think I've identified what is going on in this system but want to double check with yall.
Picture zero (I already labled something one, and I'm not going back to change it ) is an overview of the area.
1 & 2 are behind the head. Discharge routs forward (abow? bowward?)
3 is looking toward the bow inside that cubby. You can see hoses running vertically.
4 is looking toward the boaw inside the mirror cubby.
5 is looking mostly starboard under the sink.
6 is under the V berth looking starboard.
7 is under the V berth looking forward.

My take on the situation is that the discharge (1, 2) routs forward, turns 90 deg up, runs past 3, 180 deg down at 4, down at 3, under the sink at 5. There it hits a Y and either discharges via thru-hull, or runs to the bow, past 6, and to the top of the tank in 7.
Then in 7, the pump out is at the bottom, runs past 6, can see it peeking out in the back of the sink in 5, then runs up to the deck in 3, 4, 0. Is there also an air vent that takes the same rout, but terminates in a thru-hull in 4?

Man it'll be a pain changing some of this. You reckon the newer looking hose is still good?

0: Overview

1, 2: Behind the toilet

3: Lines run from under the sink to the top shelf

4: The top shelf. Toilet discharges turns back down and pump out continues up

5: direct from toilet, y function, to thru-hull or tank. I think the smooth hose in the back right is closer to the toilet and corrugated hose in back left is pumpout.

6: Smooth hose is discharge to tank, corrugated is pumpout, small hose on top is vent?

7: The tank. pumpout at bottom, discharge and vent at top?

 

[JamesG161]

Gulp.

And the help needed is?

Jim...

 

[JamesG161]

I did not see the link, so I now understand.

Good luck on the retrofit.

Jim...

 

[bonkle]

I did not see the link, so I now understand.

Good luck on the retrofit.

Jim...

Just want to make sure I'm not missing something obvious. I was incredibly confused, but I think simply writing this post cleared up quite allot for me.

 

[dlochner]

You have a big mildew problem. Time to clean that up, the boat will smell better. Don't use vinegar or bleach, there are other safer solutions.

The hoses all need replacing. The job will be much easier if you use Raritan Sani/flex hose, much easier to run. The 1 ½" hose is a Shields product it is relatively inexpensive and hard to work with.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I see a whole bunch of problems. starting with a crack in the holding tank, followed closely by corrugated hose, , cheap hose that will start to stink soon if it hasn't already, and really bad hose routing (who runs hose across a porthole????). Everything but the tank (and I'm not sure about that tank) needs to be replaced and re-routed to make sense.

My advice: start by pulling out EVERYTHING but the toilet. We can assess the condition of the tank once it's out.
Step 2: Clean the whole boat and get rid of the mold and mildew. That'll be much easier to do without all that plumbing in the way.
Once you've done all that, I'll be glad to help you spec out a sanitation system that makes sense, will be odor free and easy to maintain. And there are others here who can help you with the other systems.

I've restored a "project" boat...it's a lot of work, some of which is a royal PITA, but definitely worth it.

--Peggie

 

[bonkle]

I see a whole bunch of problems. starting with a crack in the holding tank, followed closely by corrugated hose, , cheap hose that will start to stink soon if it hasn't already, and really bad hose routing (who runs hose across a porthole????). Everything but the tank (and I'm not sure about that tank) needs to be replaced and re-routed to make sense.

My advice: start by pulling out EVERYTHING but the toilet. We can assess the condition of the tank once it's out.
Step 2: Clean the whole boat and get rid of the mold and mildew. That'll be much easier to do without all that plumbing in the way.
Once you've done all that, I'll be glad to help you spec out a sanitation system that makes sense, will be odor free and easy to maintain. And there are others here who can help you with the other systems.

I've restored a "project" boat...it's a lot of work, some of which is a royal PITA, but definitely worth it.

--Peggie

The toilet is coming out too! I have a raritan superflush going in. The floors are getting replaced, so I’ll just add sanitary demolition to that project. I imagine I’ll be doing some serious mildew remediation on everything. There’s no smell, and I’m pretty sure this system hasn’t been used in several years (thankfully).

it looks like the factory setup has the toilet dumping directly to the tank.The pumpout then had a Y valve that routed to either the thruhull (with manual pump) or deck plate.

I didn’t find the hose behind the porthole to be out of place. No experience here, of course… but I’d have thought it was an inspection thing or something.

The interior is a bit off a project on this boat, but it sails wonderfully. After getting it in good sailing shape, the work slowed greatly cause work days often turn into sailing days

 

[justsomeguy]

who runs hose across a porthole????

an inspection thing or something.

Yah, that's an inspection port, or it helps one to route stuff. Like hoses.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

OMG, that IS an inspection port, not a port hole! But why are hoses running through the inside of the tank??? And why does the tank in photo #6 look like it's made of an entirely different material than the one in photo #7?

--Peggie

 

[dlochner]

OMG, that IS an inspection port, not a port hole! But why are hoses running through the inside of the tank??? And why does the tank in photo #6 look like it's made of an entirely different material than the one in photo #7?

--Peggie

I think a prior owner installed the inspection port in the hull liner to make it easier to install new hose. The Shields hose looks like it is newer.

 

[bonkle]

OMG, that IS an inspection port, not a port hole! But why are hoses running through the inside of the tank??? And why does the tank in photo #6 look like it's made of an entirely different material than the one in photo #7?

--Peggie

Look at pic 0. If you lay down in front of the V berth in that nook and look directly starboard, that is where that porthole is in pic 6.
Pic 7 is taken from the same spot but looking directly to port. I believe the tank is just crudely finished fiberglass since it's unseen, below the V berth. I'll pull the cushion up to see if there's a hatch that can come off.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

So it looks like you have a built-in fiberglass tank hanging underneath the v-berth platform. All the fittings appear to exit the side walls, so i doubt you have any inspection port in the top, but you will discover what you have, I suppose. The inspection port looks like it is an opening somewhere in a finished space? Inside the head or in the v-berth? Those discharge hoses must get below the v-berth platform somewhere in the walls. It's really hard to follow your description. The port is definitely not mounted on the tank walls! I don't see the crack in the tank ... that would need to be described. I don't think there is one ....

Ok, so there are various ways that builder's install the plumbing. In my Starwind, the discharge hose (1.5" dia) led to a y-valve. the Y-valve diverted the effluent either directly out the thru-hull or directly to the tank .... your choice! The effluent discharges into the tank near the top of the tank and the pump-out hose sucks effluent out from the bottom. That should be obvious because your toilet pump and gravity feeds the tank and you can't suck effluent from the top of the tank or you would just be sucking air! It looks like your Y-valve leads to the tank (first choice) or to the thru hull (second choice and a no-no in protected waters!) The vent hose should be obvious ...

The other method, like in my Catalina, is all the effluent is pumped into the tank. To evacuate effluent from the tank, you have 2 choices ... pump it out underwater via a pump (usually called a macerator pump) or suck it out through the deck pump out fitting. Basically, that would involve a hose from the deck fitting to the bottom of the tank and that hose would have a tee or a wye with a hose that leads to the pump that discharges underwater. I don't see that arrangement on your boat.

It looks like you have the first method because we see a Y-valve. It looks like one lead from the Y-valve has a very short hose and a hard plastic bend that leads directly to the underwater thru-hull ... correct? The picture seems to cut that off, so it's hard to tell.

You're deep-sixing the toilet (good idea), so you want to change out all hoses no matter what condition or location they are. Don't skimp on budget hoses ... buy only the best. You don't want to do this job again. It's not such a bad job, you just don't want to do it again! If you can, find a better way to route the hoses. You don't have to duplicate what the builder did.

Picture 4 is a little confusing ... the black bend is a ventilated loop. I can't tell the hose sizes but I suppose that would be the raw-water intake to the toilet? Those hoses are typically much smaller than discharge hoses ... maybe 3/4"? I can't tell.

I don't like that hose with the severe bend that is zip-tied to the plastic bend. You say that is discharge from the toilet? I've never seen a discharge look like that. First off, it is very low quality. Secondly, why would it be that high in the system? The bend is bad news ... you should have a smooth transition from the toilet to the y-valve ... no severe bends and no un-necessary fittings. It looks like they just jammed it into as confined a space as they could make it.

Start out by making a diagram drawing of all features, including the toilet, the hoses, the fittings and the tank. That should make planning for new materials much easier and you will soon find out what bad design elements you can eliminate!

 

[bonkle]

The inspection port looks like it is an opening somewhere in a finished space?
If you're standing in the Vberth "room," you're foot would be kicking the inspection porthole.

It looks like you have the first method because we see a Y-valve. It looks like one lead from the Y-valve has a very short hose and a hard plastic bend that leads directly to the underwater thru-hull ... correct? The picture seems to cut that off, so it's hard to tell.
Yes!

Picture 4 is a little confusing ... the black bend is a ventilated loop. I can't tell the hose sizes but I suppose that would be the raw-water intake to the toilet? Those hoses are typically much smaller than discharge hoses ... maybe 3/4"? I can't tell.
That is the air vent to the holding tank.

I don't like that hose with the severe bend that is zip-tied to the plastic bend. You say that is discharge from the toilet? I've never seen a discharge look like that. First off, it is very low quality. Secondly, why would it be that high in the system? The bend is bad news ... you should have a smooth transition from the toilet to the y-valve ... no severe bends and no un-necessary fittings. It looks like they just jammed it into as confined a space as they could make it.
Same as previous question, yes?

Start out by making a diagram drawing of all features, including the toilet, the hoses, the fittings and the tank. That should make planning for new materials much easier and you will soon find out what bad design elements you can eliminate!
I think I have it down... at least enough to get started and figure out what I don't know.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I've never seen an air vent with a ventilated loop. That almost certainly has to be the raw water intake for flushing the toilet. They are always protected with a ventilated loop to prevent sea water from siphoning into the toilet (the toilet may be a just at or slightly below the water line ... or can be when the boat is healed). The tanks air vent is entirely above the waterline and there is never any need for a ventilated loop. You should trace those hoses.

I don't understand your response for the zip-tied white hose. What is that hose?

 

[bonkle]

I've never seen an air vent with a ventilated loop. That almost certainly has to be the raw water intake for flushing the toilet. They are always protected with a ventilated loop to prevent sea water from siphoning into the toilet (the toilet may be a just at or slightly below the water line ... or can be when the boat is healed). The tanks air vent is entirely above the waterline and there is never any need for a ventilated loop. You should trace those hoses.

I don't understand your response for the zip-tied white hose. What is that hose?

I'm pretty sure the ziptied white hose in pic 4 is the air vent. It's most certainly above the water line by a solid foot. You can follow it from the tank in 7, at the top of 6, turning up in 3, then terminating in 4. It could be more of a "splash resistant" loop?

The raw water intake is bottom right in 5 (it's dark, look hard), loops around and heads aft (not nearly high enough to avoid siphoning), then to the pump in 1 and 2.

... right?

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I'm pretty sure the ziptied white hose in pic 4 is the air vent. It's most certainly above the water line by a solid foot. You can follow it from the tank in 7, at the top of 6, turning up in 3, then terminating in 4. It could be more of a "splash resistant" loop?

I'm fascinated by the 180 in the hose in picture 4. Apparently it never occurred to the genius who plumbed this nightmare system to aim the 90 to make it a straight shot from wherever it's coming from. ...even worse if it's the tank vent 'cuz the 90 shouldn't be there at all, 'cuz the tank vent needs to be as short and straight as possible and the vent thru-hull needs to be high enough on the hull to keep it out of the water when heeled.

There needs to be a vented loop in the toilet intake..not in the intake line from the thru-hull, but between the pump and the bowl and at least a couple of feet above the bowl. The installation instructions for your new toilet include a drawing showing this.

If you plan to continue flushing directly overboard where legal, you'll also need a vented loop in the toilet discharge discharge line, after the y-valve and as high as the intake vented loop.

Give me a shout when you're ready to start installing the new system so we can spec out plumbing that makes sense and will definitely use a lot less hose!

--Peggie

 

[dLj]

I sit here thinking "I am so happy I'm removing all my marine heads and put in composting toilets." I'm gaining so much additional space and loosing so much complication... But I realize this is a polemic subject. And, you are committed to putting a marine head back in.

Someone said to put spray foam into the ends of the hoses you are taking out - I can attest to the wisdom of that advice. It's pretty ugly what comes out of those hoses when you pull them out.

dj