Universal M25 dosnt want to start.

[Goobs]

We started the engine at Spring commsisioning prior launch and she started right up. We ran it for about one minute and the shut it down. Now it wont start.

I started at the Facet pump and systematically bled all filters and junctions up to the bleeder knob.
I opened the bleeder knob (CCW) all the way. Switched on the Facet . Nothing came out which seems weird. No air and no fuel.

I unscrewed the nut holding the bleeder knob in place. Basically removing the knob. Turned on the electric pump and had good fuel flow. So I have fuel getting to the injector pump.

Next step.. is fuel getting to the injectors? Nope.
I loosend the injector nuts and cranked the engine.
Dry hole.

It was suggested I make sure the stop cable was fully retracted. Even 1/8 inch could keep the engine from starting.
The stop lever seems to be all the way against its stop (forward position) so I think that is good.

Unfortunately things seem to be pointing to the injector pump. But it seems odd it would fail after just starting and running fine,
It always starts right up and did so the other day.
Now it wont start.
Anything I am missing?

Thanks

 

[jviss]

I started at the Facet pump

What on earth is a "Facet pump?"

 

[Goobs]

What on earth is a "Facet pump?"

low pressure electric fuel pump

Facet Cylindrical 12v Fuel Pump, 1/4 NPT, 6.5-8 psi, Red Top | Pegasus Auto Racing Supplies

Typical flow 30 gallons per hour at 2 psi. 1/4 NPT female ports. Facet Interruptor pumps now feature reliable solid-state technology instead of points!

www.pegasusautoracing.com

 

[jviss]

low pressure electric fuel pump

Facet Cylindrical 12v Fuel Pump, 1/4 NPT, 6.5-8 psi, Red Top | Pegasus Auto Racing Supplies

Typical flow 30 gallons per hour at 2 psi. 1/4 NPT female ports. Facet Interruptor pumps now feature reliable solid-state technology instead of points!

www.pegasusautoracing.com

That's weird, to refer to a lift pump by a particular brand name of one such pump. I had no idea what you were talking about.

That said, either the pump is bad, or there's no fuel in the tank, eh?

 

[jssailem]

I unscrewed the nut holding the bleeder knob in place. Basically removing the knob. Turned on the electric pump and had good fuel flow. So I have fuel getting to the injector pump.

Is there anything between the "bleeder valve" and the "Injector pump"?
On my engine (a Perkins not a Universal) the bleeder valve is on the fuel filter. There is a fuel line between the bleeder valve and the Injector Pump. On the injector pump there is another bleed valve. That is to let off any air pocket that might"fuel lock" the pump.

I loosen the fuel line at the injector pump, then turn on the fuel pump. Bleed that line. Then tighten the line and open the injector pump bleed screw. When I get fuel there, I step to the injectors, open one and turn over the engine looking for fuel (and or air) to seep out fuel line between the High pressure pump and the injector. I know the lines are then bleed.

Different engines but nearly all have similar bleed procedures. I know the universal is supposed to be self bleeding. So that is why I suggested checking the line between the Bleed valve and the high pressure pump.

 

[jssailem]

Just broke open my manual and the fuel bleed procedure was on page 6.

 

[Goobs]

Just broke open my manual and the fuel bleed procedure was on page 6.
View attachment 215485

Thansl yes I have that . Its actually a terrible diagram. My fuel filter dosnt have the same configuration and I have good fuel supply up to the injection pump

 

[jssailem]

Did you open the valve "B" on the pump? Fuel should flow out of there.

 

[Goobs]

Did you open the valve "B" on the pump? Fuel should flow out of there.

Im not sure which one is 'B' I got as far as the first nut past the bleeder knob. Tomorrow im gonna loosen all the nuts on the bottom and top of the pump. We have never had to bleed this engine since we owned it and i've chaged all filters, all fuel lines,
etc. (photo not my engine)

 

[Goobs]

Hey, I just want to help, that's why I replied to the post. Not interested in any more arguments. I might be able to help you diagnose your problem here.

I made my own "hot switch" to run the electric lift pump.- the "Facet pump" - while bleeding the fuel system, which I did a few times, for example when replacing injectors, changing filters, etc. I mean, if you energize the pump and nothing comes out, it's either the pump, or something upstream. Does it make any noise? If so, maybe the fuel tank vent is clogged. If not, maybe it's dead.

Thats fine. Thank you for your aborted apology. But before we can engage any further, you have to admit that you knew what a 'Facet pump' is all along. I know you did. You know you did. Everyone knows you did. We have to rebuild trust amongst each other before we can move foreward to solve our problems in a communal and collegial fashion. I have fuel all the way to the bottom of the high pressure injector pump and no further.

 

[jviss]

Thats fine. Thank you for your aborted apology. But before we can engage any further, you have to admit that you knew what a 'Facet pump' is all along. I know you did. You know you did. Everyone knows you did. We have to rebuild trust amongst each other before we can move foreward to solve our problems in a communal and collegial fashion. I have fuel all the way to the bottom of the high pressure injector pump and no further.

I wasn't lying, I had no idea what a Facet pump was, had never heard that, in over 25 years of boat ownership, and almost 50 years of sailing.

Have you tried cranking over the engine while checking for fuel at the output of the high pressure pump?

 

[jssailem]

Im not sure which one is 'B'

 

[Hayden Watson]

Just to be safe.
First things first, you did not mention if you have closed the raw water thru-hull and/or drained the waterlift muffler. cranking the engine more than 30-seconds total without it firing can and will fill the muffler and back fill into the cylinders. That will change a hard to start into a total rebuild or repower situation.
I like to assume that everyone knows this but you know what they say about that...

 

[Goobs]

Just to be safe.
First things first, you did not mention if you have closed the raw water thru-hull and/or drained the waterlift muffler. cranking the engine more than 30-seconds total without it firing can and will fill the muffler and back fill into the cylinders. That will change a hard to start into a total rebuild or repower situation.
I like to assume that everyone knows this but you know what they say about that...

good point thank you . I do know about that. We are on the hard and running water intake from a HDX 5 gal bucket.
I pulled the hose out of the bucket and will stick it back in once it fires up.

someone said the engine will not start if there is water in the muffler creating back pressure (but not water in the cylinders)
Im not sure that is true

my issue is fuel delivery. I have dry injectors. even if i had muffler water backing up, i think i would still have wet injectors

 

[Hayden Watson]

Im not sure which one is 'B' I got as far as the first nut past the bleeder knob. Tomorrow im gonna loosen all the nuts on the bottom and top of the pump. We have never had to bleed this engine since we owned it and i've chaged all filters, all fuel lines,
etc. (photo not my engine)

Normally IF you do not run it out of fuel then you can bleed the system with the bleeder screw circuled in your photo. If the engine runs out of fuel or by other means gets air into the high-pressure lines from the injection pump to the injectors, than you will need to do a manual bleeding of the high-pressure lines.
The M25 bleeder is a bit more primitive and not as effective as the M25XP because the bleeder vent does not return to the tank. Just because you are getting some fuel out of the bleeder does not mean that you got all of the air out. When I change filters on my XP, I let the lift pump run for at least 60-seconds after the pitch drops which is an indication that the system is full of fuel. This returns the fuel released by the bleeder back to the tank. Then, when I close the bleeder screw, I listen to make sure that the pump nearly instantly slows down to its normal slow tick-tick-tick which indicates that there is no air to compress. If it takes several seconds to slow down, I know that there is still air in the system and I need to bleed more.
I suspect that part of your problem might be that you had not gotten all of the air out so once you started cranking, that air was sucked into the injection pump and is now just being compressed in the high-pressure line. If it was me, I would:

1. 1st off, make sure that no water was coming into the system, i.e., thru-hull closed, and water lift drain open.
2. Then I would crack each of the high-pressure lines at the injection pump and crank to make sure I have fuel there. You may need to loosen the nut a fair bit and jiggle the lines to break free the sealing flange.
3. Once I got fuel from the pump end of the HP lines, I would loosen the injector end of the HP lines and bleed it there.
4. Once I was sure that I have fuel all the way to the injectors with no air in the system it should fire and if not you likely need to look deeper.

The other likely cause is that it is not fuel related at all and is a pre-heat / glow plug issue. A good battery that has low voltage might turn over the engine ok abut not have enough volts to generate the heat in the glow plugs to get her to fire.

 

[Hayden Watson]

good point thank you . I do know about that. We are on the hard and running water intake from a HDX 5 gal bucket.
I pulled the hose out of the bucket and will stick it back in once it fires up.

someone said the engine will not start if there is water in the muffler creating back pressure (but not water in the cylinders)
Im not sure that is true

my issue is fuel delivery. I have dry injectors. even if i had muffler water backing up, i think i would still have wet injectors

There is always water in the lift muffler. You will get a bit of increase in back pressure as the water level increases but that shouldnot be enough to prevent it from starting if there was no other cause. The max depth of water before it enters the cylinder is about 1'. That would increase the pressure on the exhaust by 64 pounds per cubic foot which sounds like a lot but the M25 has a 21:1 compression ratio so it should have upward of 400 psi. FYI, 64-pcf is equal to 0.44-psi so the back pressure is a nit.
I agree that fuel is a likely cause but low voltage at the glow plugs leading to insufficient heating has traditionally cause more M25's to not start.
In my experience, they will not start without glow plugs unless the engine is fully warmed up. I have hydronic heating which warms my block to about 120º and I still need glow plugs to start the first time and my engine is very easy to start, seldom requiring more than 10-seonds of glow plug.

 

[Cat30-007]

There is always water in the lift muffler. You will get a bit of increase in back pressure as the water level increases but that shouldnot be enough to prevent it from starting if there was no other cause. The max depth of water before it enters the cylinder is about 1'. That would increase the pressure on the exhaust by 64 pounds per cubic foot which sounds like a lot but the M25 has a 21:1 compression ratio so it should have upward of 400 psi. FYI, 64-pcf is equal to 0.44-psi so the back pressure is a nit.
I agree that fuel is a likely cause but low voltage at the glow plugs leading to insufficient heating has traditionally cause more M25's to not start.
In my experience, they will not start without glow plugs unless the engine is fully warmed up. I have hydronic heating which warms my block to about 120º and I still need glow plugs to start the first time and my engine is very easy to start, seldom requiring more than 10-seonds of glow plug.

everyone has great comments and i appreciate them

glow plugs are fine. as i said, she started right up. only after we shut her down could we not restart.
i have dry injectors. not bad glow plugs.