Old bilge: water in keel

Don S/V ILLusion · May 4, 2023

A little late but it would have been better to drill into the keel bottom to allow water to escape rather than drill into the bilge and hope how you seal the hole(s) will work.

Davidasailor26 · May 4, 2023

What material keel, and is it encapsulated in fiberglass? A typical lead or iron keel with just an epoxy shell doesn’t really have anyplace to hold water except maybe small surface voids.

Leeward Rail · May 4, 2023

Davidasailor26 said:
A typical lead or iron keel with just an epoxy shell doesn’t really have anyplace to hold water except maybe small surface voids.

I was told by a keel repair guy, that water can get down the bolts and collect at the bottom of the bolt. A bunch of freeze/thaw cycles and it will push the lead outwards. Obviously the keel joint and bolts need to be deteriorated for that to happen.

xavpil said:
some googling showed the keel is fiberglass...

With what inside ? It needs weight.

Don S/V ILLusion · May 4, 2023

xavpil said:
some googling showed the keel is fiberglass...

Keels aren’t fiberglass. They may be encased in glass but composed of it.

Leeward Rail · May 4, 2023

Don S/V ILLusion said:
Keels aren’t fiberglass. They may be encased in glass but composed of it.

Well. I did some searching..
Apparently the Catalina 27 was changed over the years, but they had bricks as a core for a lead covering and then fiberglass.. ? Ugh.

One thread on sailing anarchy and a another from the Catalina 27 mailing list talk about actual BRICKS inside fiberglass encapsulated, lead keel with mild steel bolts holding them on.

catalina-27-270-owners-association.groups.io

Keel Cross-section??

catalina-27-270-owners-association.groups.io

Remind me to never buy a c27

capta · May 4, 2023

The kind of repairs you are suggesting cannot be properly addressed from outside the boat with a little bit of caulking.
As long as y'all wear life jackets all the time, you should be OK when the keel falls off.

Tally Ho · May 4, 2023

xavpil said:
Hey friends.
the Surveyor mentioned traces of water in the keel. Not enough to justify the cost of repair for my 1980 Catalina 27 though.
To prevent or stop further damages I drilled some holes in the bilge in hope moisture evaporates. but keeping the bilge dry is hard.
My plan is to plug the holes and any cracks in the gel coat with epoxy/hardener.
It definitelly doesn’t fix the pb but is stops making it worse.

Ideas? Suggestions?

thx!

As others have said, drilling holes through the bilge into the keel probably wasn’t the best approach…but since you did it, what sort of materials did you drill through ? That may be helpful to know how your keel is made up. If it was me, I would tap the keel with a small hammer and see what it sounds like…solid like lead? Hollow like fiberglass?

A fiberglass encased keel can trap water, and boats with encapsulated keels may have a garboard plug near the bottom of the keel (visible on the outside of the keel) that can be removed to drain eater out of the keel when hauled out.

You might want to drill a hole or 2 near the bottom of the keel, about 1/2 way through, and see what you find….any water come out? What material did you drill through?

If water comes out, you are getting closer to a solution. But you will need to repair the holes before you can get the boat back in the water. And it doesn’t really address the causes of the water getting into the keel…and don’t forget to fix the holes you drilled in the bilge…I wouldn't want to put the boat back in the water until those are all fixed.

OR, hire the yard to inspect and tell you What needs to be done to fix things.

Greg

Siamese · May 5, 2023

Bricks?

Leeward Rail · May 5, 2023

Siamese said:
Bricks?

Exactly ! Wth.

Catalina contracted out their keels. I know that the C22 keel was cast iron and depending on who did the casting in Mexico, the quality varied widely.

Lord knows if the brick stupidity was on every Catalina 27. At some point they stopped using mild steel for the bolts. Maybe they stopped using bricks inside ? I can only assume it was in specific areas.

The old sailing anarchy thread had a dead link to some photos. This is truly one "this I have to see" situation. Maybe I can find photos on archive.org

Wonders never cease.

FastOlson · May 5, 2023

The company is still in business... https://www.catalinayachts.com/
Contact them about your model and year for basic construction information.
Some of the replies in this thread would do justice to a script from Monty Python.... !
Do a web search for Catalina owners' groups, too.

Leeward Rail · May 5, 2023

FastOlson said:
Do a web search for Catalina owners' groups, too.

I linked one in my comment about bricks. The info comes direct from a c27 owners group.

Edit: see additional info below

Leeward Rail · May 5, 2023

Edit: Here's the links to the Sailing Anarchy thread and Catalina 27 Owners thread:

Catalina 27 Keel

I have a 1981 Catalina 27 with the short keel (3'5"), have found a 1974 with the standard keel cheap. I can do the change myself but want to be sure the sump / keel box is the same size. Anyone done this? Br

forums.sailinganarchy.com

Post #7

Weeping About Weeping Keel

I have a Catalina 27 Mark I with a weeping wing keel. It has a single spot about a foot up from the bottom of the keel, in the middle, that loses a drop of water about once a minute. The prior owner tried to fix it by slapping some fiberglass on it, but the fiberglass isn't well sealed to the...

forums.sailinganarchy.com

Shoddy Workmanship Anarchy

Some good stuff in this thread. That coffee cup is going to be hard to top. I think the swim fin tied it. :D

forums.sailinganarchy.com

Keel Cross-section??

catalina-27-270-owners-association.groups.io

rgranger · May 5, 2023

Leeward Rail said:
Catalina 27 Keel

I have a 1981 Catalina 27 with the short keel (3'5"), have found a 1974 with the standard keel cheap. I can do the change myself but want to be sure the sump / keel box is the same size. Anyone done this? Br

forums.sailinganarchy.com

Post #7

okay now... that is weird! When I first read "brick" I assumed lead bricks and thought... yeah so? But regular bricks makes no sense. I would think concrete would be cheaper and the density of concrete (not cement) is slightly more than brick.

Leeward Rail · May 5, 2023

rgranger said:
But regular bricks makes no sense.

Agreed.
Apparently it was to reduce the weight of the keel while still having it the same size/shape ?

Lots of possibilities for water ingress and resulting failure.

With the Catalina 27 keel sumps prone to rot, and the mild steel keel bolts they originally used... and then Catalina Direct repair kit uses stainless lags bolts as a fix when the original bolts corrode away.
Definitely not buying Catalina 27.