Raritan PHII lubricate piston from top?

[skunther]

Has anyone successfully lubricated their PHII pump piston cylinder from the top instead of removing the entire unit from its base and doing the job from the bottom?
Is it not possible to remove the shaft nut, then the o ring seal and get superlube into the cylinder from the top? What about installing a port to the top of the cylinder for the purpose of injecting superlube?
I’ve lubricate it from the bottom before, and it seems an unnecessarily unpleasant and time consuming job. There has to be a better way…

 

[dlochner]

I lubricate the pump when I change the joker valve, which I do every spring. Lubricate once with the pump handle up and once with the pump handle down. This gets the Super Lube on both sides of the piston.

 

[capta]

Pouring a lubricant into the bowl is more effective than trying to do so from the top. I've had pretty good luck doing that. I doubt that the plastic would hold up to an installation of a "lube port".

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Has anyone successfully lubricated their PHII pump piston cylinder from the top instead of removing the entire unit from its base and doing the job from the bottom?

Great minds think alike or you've been looking over my shoulder .

You'll have to grind a thin walled box end wrench to fit the gland nut over the shaft. Even with the extra cost and work of coming up with the pieces and parts for the SuperLube grease gun and customizing the box end, there was no way I was going to open up the bottom of the pump to lube the piston ring. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT'S BEEN IN THERE . Oh wait, you do know what's been in there and it's going to be all over the floor.

When you inject the grease, swing the tube from the grease gun over to the cylinder walls and run a bead of grease around the circumference. Pump a few times and repeat.

 

[skunther]

I lubricate the pump when I change the joker valve, which I do every spring. Lubricate once with the pump handle up and once with the pump handle down. This gets the Super Lube on both sides of the piston.

How do you get the lube in there?

 

[dlochner]

How do you get the lube in there?

I give the tube a good hard squeeze or two. It works with a tube that is at least half full, doesn't work if you are squeezing out the last few drops of grease. That's not an issue because I use super lube in a number of other locations, any where there is plastic screwing on to plastic, like inline filters, inspection ports, etc.

 

[skunther]

I give the tube a good hard squeeze or two. It works with a tube that is at least half full, doesn't work if you are squeezing out the last few drops of grease. That's not an issue because I use super lube in a number of other locations, any where there is plastic screwing on to plastic, like inline filters, inspection ports, etc.

Sorry - I meant do you squeeze it in the top of the pump? Or do you remove the pump and squeeze it in from the bottom of the pump?

 

[skunther]

Great minds think alike or you've been looking over my shoulder .

View attachment 215164

View attachment 215165

I’m curious what brand grease gun you have and/or the diameter of the tip. Clearance between the shaft and hole is tight…
Also, how do you remove the o-rings without damaging them? Don’t want to turn the pump into a squirt gun…

 

[dlochner]

Sorry - I meant do you squeeze it in the top of the pump? Or do you remove the pump and squeeze it in from the bottom of the pump?

The Joker valve should be changed every year. When the valve is out, you have access to the bottom of the pump. The pump piston will go all the way down, squirt some super lube in there. put the pump handle in the other position (up or down opposite of what you did first) and squirt more grease in there. Install the new joker valve. Down, 2 jobs done with only one mess.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

I don't get out too much Dave, so I'll have to ask for your patience here.

I lubricate the pump when I change the joker valve, which I do every spring.

Why do you change the joker valve every spring ? I keep waiting for the first indication of a failure of the joker which never seems to come. Had the old Jabco in there for some 19 years and it gave me all sorts of problems with leaks but I don't ever remember ever looking at the joker valve. I've had the all new Raritan in there for 4 years now and I won't go near the joker valve until I get an indication of backflow.

Lubricate once with the pump handle up and once with the pump handle down. This gets the Super Lube on both sides of the piston.

I can see getting the Superlube on the bottom of the piston ring if the piston is up but I don't see how you can inject the Super on top of the piston ring if the piston is down.

If the downward travel of the piston were sufficient to open its upper side to the contents of the bowl, you would get mixing of the clean flushing water and whatever is in the bowl. Not a good idea.

Enquiring and and sheltered minds want to know.

 

[dlochner]

Why do you change the joker valve every spring ? I keep waiting for the first indication of a failure of the joker which never seems to come. Had the old Jabco in there for some 19 years and it gave me all sorts of problems with leaks but I don't ever remember ever looking at the joker valve. I've had the all new Raritan in there for 4 years now and I won't go near the joker valve until I get an indication of backflow.

Would you rather change a joker valve when the pump chamber and hose is empty or only filled with cleanish water or would rather change it when it has failed and the pump chamber and hose are filled with something else?

I can see getting the Superlube on the bottom of the piston ring if the piston is up but I don't see how you can inject the Super on top of the piston ring if the piston is down.

I have a Raritan PHII, the piston is not the full 1 ½" high, more like a half Inch or so. The top of the piston is below the top of the outlet. If the joker valve is doing its job, once the piston starts to rise it will close shut and the vacuum created will lift the flapper valve and the bowl contents will be drawn into the pump chamber. The down stroke forces the flapper valve to close so the pump chamber empties out through the joker valve. If water is to be directed to the bowl, the intake valve is changed to "Flush" which opens the intake valve and on the down stroke water enters the chamber on top of the piston and on the up stroke the water is directed to the bowl. If on the "Dry" position, there is a a pressure relief valve to reduce pressure on the valve blocking the water flow.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

1. It's not actually the piston ROD that needs the grease 'cuz it doesn't rub against anything...it's all the seals,o-rings and gaskets ON the piston rod that rub against inside of the pump housing that need the protection from the grease. Lifting the PHII pump off the base to squirt about a tablespoon of SuperLube thick grease--the grease that Raritan uses-- up into the pump (how I was taught to do it by Raritan techs at the factory) only requires removing and replacing 4 bolts...you should only have to do it annually as part of spring recommisioning and maybe once more if you use your boat year round, which beats the socks off flushing something down the toilet every few weeks that washes out in just a few flushes.

2. About joker valves and why they should be replaced at least annually in any manual toilet (the following was written for in inclusion in my book by Vic Willman, former Raritan tech services manager who retired several years ago) If you have my book you'll find it in the chapter "Joker Valves 101"

"Most people think that the only thing the joker valve does is acts as a check valve to stop backflow from returning to the toilet or odor from the tank from escaping through the toilet. But that's the joker valve's LEAST important function...in fact, the joker valve is THE single most important replaceable part in a manual toilet. Here's why:
"On the upstroke of the piston, a vacuum is created in the area beneath the piston. This causes the joker valve to close tightly, and the flapper valve beneath the pump to open, allowing some of the contents of the toilet bowl to be drawn into the bottom half of the pump. Then, on the down stroke of the piston, the flapper valve is slammed shut, and the effluent is forced out of the bottom of the pump, through the joker valve, and off down the line. But when the joker valve becomes worn and/or there's a buildup of sea water minerals on it, it can no longer seal tightly on the upstroke of the piston so less and less vacuum is created, requiring more and more pumping to move bowl contents.

"You may not notice the loss of efficiency at first because it's so gradual. But I guarantee you that if it's been two years or longer since you replaced the joker valve, you need to pump the toilet at least 50% more times to move the bowl contents to the tank or all the way out the thru-hull....IF they're getting there at all any more."

--Peggie

 

[skunther]

1. It's not actually the piston ROD that needs the grease 'cuz it doesn't rub against anything...it's all the seals,o-rings and gaskets ON the piston rod that rub against inside of the pump housing that need the protection from the grease. Lifting the PHII pump off the base to squirt about a tablespoon of SuperLube thick grease--the grease that Raritan uses-- up into the pump (how I was taught to do it by Raritan techs at the factory) only requires removing and replacing 4 bolts...you should only have to do it annually as part of spring recommisioning and maybe once more if you use your boat year round, which beats the socks off flushing something down the toilet every few weeks that washes out in just a few flushes.

2. About joker valves and why they should be replaced at least annually in any manual toilet (the following was written for in inclusion in my book by Vic Willman, former Raritan tech services manager who retired several years ago) If you have my book you'll find it in the chapter "Joker Valves 101"

"Most people think that the only thing the joker valve does is acts as a check valve to stop backflow from returning to the toilet or odor from the tank from escaping through the toilet. But that's the joker valve's LEAST important function...in fact, the joker valve is THE single most important replaceable part in a manual toilet. Here's why:
"On the upstroke of the piston, a vacuum is created in the area beneath the piston. This causes the joker valve to close tightly, and the flapper valve beneath the pump to open, allowing some of the contents of the toilet bowl to be drawn into the bottom half of the pump. Then, on the down stroke of the piston, the flapper valve is slammed shut, and the effluent is forced out of the bottom of the pump, through the joker valve, and off down the line. But when the joker valve becomes worn and/or there's a buildup of sea water minerals on it, it can no longer seal tightly on the upstroke of the piston so less and less vacuum is created, requiring more and more pumping to move bowl contents.

"You may not notice the loss of efficiency at first because it's so gradual. But I guarantee you that if it's been two years or longer since you replaced the joker valve, you need to pump the toilet at least 50% more times to move the bowl contents to the tank or all the way out the thru-hull....IF they're getting there at all any more."

--Peggie

Thanks Peggie,

I have your book. I wonder what you think about @dlochner's technique for lubricating the PHII mentioned above:

The Joker valve should be changed every year. When the valve is out, you have access to the bottom of the pump. The pump piston will go all the way down, squirt some super lube in there. put the pump handle in the other position (up or down opposite of what you did first) and squirt more grease in there. Install the new joker valve. Down, 2 jobs done with only one mess.

I have overhauled my PHII, and based on my experience I would rather utilize his technique if it works. Pulling the joker valve out is very easy. Detaching and lifting the pump assembly with it's assorted hoses, etc, was a bit more involved.

 

[JoeWhite]

I pour about one table spoon olive oil in the toilet after use. This, not only lubricates the pump and the joker valve, but the oil floats on the water and blocks odores.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

I’m curious what brand grease gun you have and/or the diameter of the tip. Clearance between the shaft and hole is tight…

The small grease gun doesn't have a brand name or model number on it anywhere. Chinese knock off for sure. I've had it for decades, before Chinese knock offs even became popular.

Shown below is how to assemble one after taking the grease fitting off the end of the 1/8" pipe. The fittings may not be the most compact as I made this from spare parts on hand.

The closest grease gun at Amazon.com is this one :

I used the smallest one as it doesn't require a full grease can of SuperLube to fill it.

The 1/8" OD X 1/16" ID poly tubing is also available from Amazon;

The 1/8" MIP X 1/16" adapter may be available from Amazon but watch the OD and ID tube sizes as the sellers are a little confused in some cases. Get an FIP X barbed fitting and you can eliminate the brass connector to simplify life a little.

After a close look at the amount of piping around the bowl which allows for a clean water flush at the end of the day, there is no way I intend to annually open either the bottom of the pump base or the joker valve housing for lubrication. I'll open whichever, when the need for repairs arises. If the Jabsco joker valve is any indication of life expectancy, that'll be many years from now with the Raritan.

I also get the impression from Peggie that you'll get an indication as to when your joker valve starts to fail.

But when the joker valve becomes worn and/or there's a buildup of sea water minerals on it, it can no longer seal tightly on the upstroke of the piston so less and less vacuum is created, requiring more and more pumping to move bowl contents.

Why the joker vlave on my old Jabsco went for so many years without any attention may be due to my previous habit of dumping a gallon of fresh water into the bowl at the end of the day while pumping on dry :

I know this raised hell with the piston ring as the upper cylinder was dry, but that's all in the past and best left there. The current Raritan sucks water from the sink drain at close up time and the cylinder is always full on both sides. Oh, how I envy lake sailors .

Also, how do you remove the o-rings without damaging them? Don’t want to turn the pump into a squirt gun…

The O ring (part #23) which acts as the gland packing comes up with the shaft and is greased with SuperLube and then pulled off the shaft over the threads. The grease always prevents cutting the O ring if you're careful. Also, keep track of O ring #24.

The process is a walk in the park after the first time you've done it. And most important to me, It's absolutely CLEAN.

Take a look at the attached cheat sheet which I prepared for a friend who also works on the boat (at very rare intervals) and wanted to do it from scratch.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Why would you need a grease gun to lube the pump??? Just stick the nozzle on the tube of grease up into the bottom of the pump and squirt about a tablespoon of grease into it. Replace the pump...pump a few times to spread it all over the inside of the pump and you're done for the season.

That's how the techs at Raritan taught me to do it.

--Peggie

 

[dlochner]

I have your book. I wonder what you think about @dlochner's technique for lubricating the PHII mentioned above:

I won't argue with a Raritan Tech, however, simply removing 4 bolts on my is just not as easy as it may seem. Since I have the fitting off for the joker valve and can access both the top and bottom of the piston, it is the method I choose. So far, it seems to be working, but it has only been a year with the new pump, I retired the old one after 27 years. And getting some grease in there is better than no grease.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Why would you need a grease gun to lube the pump??? Just stick the nozzle on the tube of grease up into the bottom of the pump and squirt about a tablespoon of grease into it.

The problem (or advantage) here is is that I am lubricating the pump from the top as shown :

This requires a small 1/8" OD tube with a 1/16" ID. The grease is too viscous to go through 12" length of the small tube without the assistance of the grease gun to boost the pressure. I should mention that the piston is at the bottom of its stroke when the grease is pumped on to the cylinder walls.

Let's see how long the pump O-ring will last with this fashion of lubrication. So far so good. I can feel the stroke ease up after the pump has not been lubed for a year.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

also get the impression from Peggie that you'll get an indication as to when your joker valve starts to fail.

Nope..that's not what happens. Joker valves actually "start to fail" with the first flush, 'cuz every flush that goes through it forces the "lips' open. At first they close again, but the more flushes that go through it, the less tightly they close, which gradually reduces the amount of vacuum created on the upstroke, also gradually reducing the efficiency of the downstroke so slightly that you don't even notice that you're pumping once or twice more each time, till eventually the slit becomes a hole.

--Peggie

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Nope..that's not what happens. Joker valves actually "start to fail" with the first flush, 'cuz

What @dlochner and I were debating was the need to replace the joker valve on an annual basis. He insists on an annual renewal and myself, I just wait for problems with the joker valve not sealing. So my question to you, Peggie, how likely are you to see a joker valve fail by the sudden loss of a "lip" ?