Beneteau 37 circuit breaker replacement

[Karl T]

Greetings all,

I could use some advice. I'm a new owner of a 2009 Beneteau 37 and this is my first sailboat so I'll probably be needing lots of advice.

Under the starboard settee there's a circuit breaker for AC shorepower 1 (running battery charger, outlets and water heater). I noticed it was warm to touch and tripped so I had an electrician look at it. He found some damage on it and recommends replacement. He said it's generating resistance and thus heat and tripping thermally.

My question is about selecting the appropriate replacement. It's a Eaton-Moeller Xpole PFGM 40/2/003 (see photos). It seems this part is discontinued. I've found the exact part (I think) for sale in Europe but it's a 5 week lead time. Does it seem correct that the breaker indicates 230 volts up under the test button, perhaps that shows what the test button will send through to confirm it trips?

The electrician said he would look on his own to try and find a replacement but I said I'd look as well. Would any of you wiser, more experienced folks have a sense of what I should do? Before I buy the part with a long lead time I'd hope to find a suitable version in the US so I can get it repaired sooner.

Kind regards,
Karl

 

[Davidasailor26]

Welcome to the forum!

Our 2014 37 has a breaker in that same location, but I don’t remember it looking like that. I’ll take a picture of mine when I’m at the boat in the next day or two.

Off-hand I find it interesting that the breaker seems to be rated for 230V, 40A, and 50 Hz. That seems more typical of European based Beneteaus than what I’d expect for a US based ones. Is the rest of the AC configured for 230 or US 120 volts?

 

[Karl T]

Hi David,

Thanks for the reply. Yes the boat's AC system is 120, the usual US standard. I too was puzzled by the 40A, 230V markings. I'm curious to see how yours looks when you get a change.

 

[jssailem]

Here are the specs in PDF format.
230V is European voltage.

 

[jssailem]

Here. is the Confirmation of Conformity to Standard.. Euro Standard

 

[Mechone]

ASI NDB1L-32C-32-120V DIN Rail Mount Ground Fault Circuit Breaker, UL 1053 Ground Fault Sensing, Leakage Current 30 mA, 32 amp, 120V: Amazon.com: Tools & Home Improvement
The breaker above is correct yet it shows wrong picture it shows 240v I have the breaker on my boat . You can go directly to there website in US
First off thats an RDC breaker similar to GFI however works different , AC 60 hz cycles back forth and the breaker is looking for balance , if not balance it assumes there is leakage to ground and trips and is totally the wrong size ,voltage and hz breaker.
1) If its rated for 40amps the line size must be rated for 40 amps or you can have a fire ,wires will overheat without breaker tripping, It would have to be a #8 gauge wire =40amps , #10 =30 amps , 12 =20amps , 14=15amps. Your power cord to the boat is most likely only 30amps
2) It's a 240volt single wire breaker , the "N" is for your neutral wire ( which by code should be white wire) at least where I live
3) Find another electrician he doesn't have clue if he's looking to replace with the same its a fire hazard, someone has changed it out

ASI NDB1L-32C-25-120V DIN Rail Mount Ground Fault Circuit Breaker, UL 1053 Ground Fault Sensing, Leakage Current 30 mA, 25 amp, 120V: Amazon.com: Tools & Home Improvement

Here is the 25amp it has the correct picture, which is what i have not nader

Ground Fault Circuit Breakers - ASI (sourceasi.com)

 

[SycloneDriver]

Do you have any heavy loads plugged into the outlets, like a space heater, hair dryer, coffee pot, etc? If you do I would suggest that you turn off the water heater when running that power hungry appliance. I try to make sure I don't too many heavy loads on at one time, like my air conditioning and the water heater. I only have one 30 amp shore power connection.

Looking at the picture with the melted plastic it looks like that screw may have been loose. A loose/poor connection will have high resistance and generate heat.

The 40 amp breaker seems too large. Do you have duel 30 amp shore power or single 50?

 

[Karl T]

I've got 2 30 amp services. The circuit with this breaker is for the battery charger, outlets (including microwave) and the water heater. I've tripped it running the microwave and water heater at the same time so I've started using only one big load at a time. 40 amp does seem like it's too large.

 

[SycloneDriver]

I've got 2 30 amp services. The circuit with this breaker is for the battery charger, outlets (including microwave) and the water heater. I've tripped it running the microwave and water heater at the same time so I've started using only one big load at a time. 40 amp does seem like it's too large.

That's very similar to my boat, but I don't have a microwave.

 

[jssailem]

Welcome Karl. Glad to have you aboard.
As a new boat owner you are now responsible for all the systems on the boat. You became an electrician, mechanic, sailor, police, Mayor (skipper) and plumber/sanitation worker for this slice of independent water living.

As the Mayor/Electrician... You can hire staff (who you need to be sure they know what they are doing) or become a DIY guy and study the details.

The circuit breaker trips because you are running greater loads through the breaker than it can handle. It is shouting this to you by getting hot. "YOUR ARE WORKING ME TO HARD"!

The breaker is identified as a 40 amp breaker at 230V. You should choose a breaker based on the wire sizes in the wiring circuit design. You should limit the load to 80% of the breaker amperage.

Now comes the work part. First the math.
Load (Watts)/Volts = AMPS

I am assuming you are in the US not Europe. US uses 120 V systems. If you are in Europe the supply is 240 V.
Your microwave is say 1800 Watts. (I do not know. this is guess. you need to get the info from the label on the back.)

1800W/120V= 15Amps

Your Breaker can handle the 15 Amps for the imaginary microwave.

Now add a vacuum and perhaps: Air Conditioner, refrigerator/freezer, battery charger, outlets using a hair dryer and water heater

Lets say WATTS = AMPS are:
Vacuum = 1100 = 9.2
Air Conditioner = 2800 = 23.3
Hair dryer = 1600 = 13.3
Water Heater = 750 = 6.25
Refrigerator/Freezer = 96

You need to identify the watts for each of the units in the circuit controlled by the breaker.

Then add up the AMP loads and decide as the Public Works Electrician on your boat how many of the systems can be run on your circuit.

It is your boat and your decision. Choose wisely.

 

[Davidasailor26]

Hi David,

Thanks for the reply. Yes the boat's AC system is 120, the usual US standard. I too was puzzled by the 40A, 230V markings. I'm curious to see how yours looks when you get a change.

To my surprise the breaker in our 2014 (Built in South Carolina with US 110V circuits) is also a PFGM-40/2/003, rated for 230V and 40A.

Clearly Beneteau put it in a box labeled for 110V. We're the original owners so I know there was no previous owner trickery.

I did look more closely at the other breakers and the wiring around the breakers. Here's what I found:
- We have circuit breakers for the 30A house circuit and 30A Air Con circuit in the aft lazarette within a few feet of the shore inlets. Each of those breakers is a GE EPC 62 C32, rated for 32Amps.
- The Air Con circuit uses 10AWG/3 wire with 105C insulation. ABYC says that wire is good up to at least 35.7A, so I think the 32A breaker is ok for that line.
- The House circuit uses Titanex H07RN-F 3G6 cable at least around the outside breaker and the one in the settee. That cable (at least according to Google) appears to be rated for 43A, so the 32A lazarette breaker and 40A settee breaker should be acceptable for that circuit. The breaker on the AC panel itself should provide any additional further limitations necessary downstream of that point.

We've never tripped any breakers, including when using the microwave, water heater, Air Con, etc.

Where the brown wire enters your breaker does look pretty toasted. I like @SycloneDriver's theory of a bad connection there causing too much heat. The excess heat is either tripping the breaker now or it's weakened the breaker over time to the point where it won't carry its rated current. If you were actually drawing enough current to trip a spec 40A breaker the 32A breaker in the aft lazarette should trip first.

So bottom line based on what I've seen in mine is you can replace with an equivalent item, cut that burnt end off the brown wire, and hopefully everything is back to normal.

Edit to add: My guess is Beneteau needed to add a ground fault style device, not necessarily more overcurrent protection, since they already have that at the ingress and the main panel. So they just used the European style RDC breaker that they buy in bulk for the ground fault aspects, ignoring the total amperage limits. An ELCI or GFI or RDC breaker that fits the US standard perfectly might be better, but that one should work for its intended purpose.

 

[Karl T]

To my surprise the breaker in our 2014 (Built in South Carolina with US 110V circuits) is also a PFGM-40/2/003, rated for 230V and 40A.


Clearly Beneteau put it in a box labeled for 110V. We're the original owners so I know there was no previous owner trickery.

(SNIP)

So bottom line based on what I've seen in mine is you can replace with an equivalent item, cut that burnt end off the brown wire, and hopefully everything is back to normal.

Thanks for checking your boat David and for the informative detail. I'm reassured to see Beneteau built them both the same so it must have worked adequately in this configuration. I've managed to source an exact replacement and it should be here next week. Your conclusion about why the manufacturer did it this way makes sense to me.

 

[Karl T]

You need to identify the watts for each of the units in the circuit controlled by the breaker.

Then add up the AMP loads and decide as the Public Works Electrician on your boat how many of the systems can be run on your circuit.

It is your boat and your decision. Choose wisely.

Public Works Electrician, love it !

That's a good exercise so I'll work on it and can make decisions as to what can be run simultaneously. A trip would indicate that either the calculation is incorrect or the system isn't performing as expected and warrant follow up.

Appreciate the thoughtful and informative advice!

 

[APP314]

There seems to be a substantial amount of discrepancy in the different answers on this thread. So I feel compelled to add my own understanding of the subject matter. While I’m by no means an expert in this field I’ve done a fair amount of reading on the topic so I’ll give my best interpretation of the issues at hand. I will try to explain my rationale for the different suggestions and cite sources whenever applicable so you can draw your own conclusions.



A deviation of 10 Hz in the frequency rating of a breaker has no practical relevance when operating at such low frequencies as we do (50 to 60 Hz). This is the case because at low frequencies the resistance of the conductor (responsible for the thermal trip of the breaker) is roughly independent of the frequency (at high frequencies the current no longer flows through the bulk of the conductor but that is not relevant here). The same holds very approximately true for the magnetic portion of the breaker.



The voltage rating of a breaker is the maximum allowable working voltage. Operation at lower voltage is completely acceptable (see below). The amperage rating of a breaker is the maximum current that the breaker will transfer without tripping. Currents above this value will cause tripping when sustained for a variable amount of time which decreases as the value of the current above the nominal value increases. This dependency is given by the tripping curve and there are several standard curves used for different applications.

For example the breaker described above by David GE EPC 62 C32 has a class C trip curve (this appears in the data sheet of the breaker) implying that instantaneous tripping will occur for currents 5 to 10 times the nominal 32 A value (see enclosed picture). The same breaker specs a minimum operating voltage of 12V.





The label on the breaker box or exterior panel, should indicate the operating voltage of the installation (ABYC E-11 11.9.3) (120V in this case). So there is not conflict in the case of the installation shown.



The allowable (safe) current through a cable is not just a function of the wire gauge but also of the maximum working temperature of the insulation (marine cable is typically 105C), the expected ambient temperature, and the bundle configuration (single wire, two wires together, and so on). Fundamentally it defines a safe margin for current flowing through the conductor, above which the increase in temperature of the wire could cause the insulation material to start degrading and a short circuit can take place. The main goal of breakers and fuses is to prevent the cables associated with them from ever reaching this condition.

In your case for a 30A installation outside the engine compartment and assuming you are using triplex 105C wiring (two current carrying conductors bundled together plus ground) ABYC tables (ABYC E-11 TABLE 4B) give the following limits:



for AWG 12 max current is 31.5A

and for AWG 10 max current is 42.0



I would personally go with 10 Gauge as the difference in price for a 20 something feet run is not that great.



As for the rating of your particular breaker as others have pointed out this likely is in place to act as an residual-current device (RCD), a device who’s function is to detect an imbalance of current going in and out of the systems (implying an additional path to ground, a short somewhere, or someone grounding a live conductor!) when this value of current differential exceeds 30 mA the breaker will trip. I personally will replace it with a dedicated RCD and a separate 30A breaker if you want the added convenience and redundancy (I would). The RCD works on the same principle as the GFCI but the latter has a trip current of 5 mA.



With regards to the faulty breaker as others have mentioned the damage suggests a loose connection or a broken wire (where only a few strands remain). Either condition creates a dramatic reduction in cross-section at the contact point creating a point of high resistance and consequently generating heat. Also I would mention that the insulation of the cable appears to have been badly damaged and should also be replaced.



I hope this helps



All the best,



Alejandro

 

[Mechone]

There seems to be a substantial amount of discrepancy in the different answers on this thread. So I feel compelled to add my own understanding of the subject matter. While I’m by no means an expert in this field I’ve done a fair amount of reading on the topic so I’ll give my best interpretation of the issues at hand. I will try to explain my rationale for the different suggestions and cite sources whenever applicable so you can draw your own conclusions.



A deviation of 10 Hz in the frequency rating of a breaker has no practical relevance when operating at such low frequencies as we do (50 to 60 Hz). This is the case because at low frequencies the resistance of the conductor (responsible for the thermal trip of the breaker) is roughly independent of the frequency (at high frequencies the current no longer flows through the bulk of the conductor but that is not relevant here). The same holds very approximately true for the magnetic portion of the breaker.



The voltage rating of a breaker is the maximum allowable working voltage. Operation at lower voltage is completely acceptable (see below). The amperage rating of a breaker is the maximum current that the breaker will transfer without tripping. Currents above this value will cause tripping when sustained for a variable amount of time which decreases as the value of the current above the nominal value increases. This dependency is given by the tripping curve and there are several standard curves used for different applications.

For example the breaker described above by David GE EPC 62 C32 has a class C trip curve (this appears in the data sheet of the breaker) implying that instantaneous tripping will occur for currents 5 to 10 times the nominal 32 A value (see enclosed picture). The same breaker specs a minimum operating voltage of 12V.





The label on the breaker box or exterior panel, should indicate the operating voltage of the installation (ABYC E-11 11.9.3) (120V in this case). So there is not conflict in the case of the installation shown.



The allowable (safe) current through a cable is not just a function of the wire gauge but also of the maximum working temperature of the insulation (marine cable is typically 105C), the expected ambient temperature, and the bundle configuration (single wire, two wires together, and so on). Fundamentally it defines a safe margin for current flowing through the conductor, above which the increase in temperature of the wire could cause the insulation material to start degrading and a short circuit can take place. The main goal of breakers and fuses is to prevent the cables associated with them from ever reaching this condition.

View attachment 212136

In your case for a 30A installation outside the engine compartment and assuming you are using triplex 105C wiring (two current carrying conductors bundled together plus ground) ABYC tables (ABYC E-11 TABLE 4B) give the following limits:



for AWG 12 max current is 31.5A

and for AWG 10 max current is 42.0



I would personally go with 10 Gauge as the difference in price for a 20 something feet run is not that great.



As for the rating of your particular breaker as others have pointed out this likely is in place to act as an residual-current device (RCD), a device who’s function is to detect an imbalance of current going in and out of the systems (implying an additional path to ground, a short somewhere, or someone grounding a live conductor!) when this value of current differential exceeds 30 mA the breaker will trip. I personally will replace it with a dedicated RCD and a separate 30A breaker if you want the added convenience and redundancy (I would). The RCD works on the same principle as the GFCI but the latter has a trip current of 5 mA.



With regards to the faulty breaker as others have mentioned the damage suggests a loose connection or a broken wire (where only a few strands remain). Either condition creates a dramatic reduction in cross-section at the contact point creating a point of high resistance and consequently generating heat. Also I would mention that the insulation of the cable appears to have been badly damaged and should also be replaced.



I hope this helps
and most


All the best,



Alejandro

Thats all nice but you have a huge hole in your information , it depends on termination at both ends and most termination is only rated for 75 and 60 which means you must derate the wire to that spec ...code or burn someones boat to the ground so on 40 amps its a #8 not a #10 is 30 amps

 

[APP314]

Thats all nice but you have a huge hole in your information , it depends on termination at both ends and most termination is only rated for 75 and 60 which means you must derate the wire to that spec ...code or burn someones boat to the ground so on 40 amps its a #8 not a #10 is 30 amps

I'm sorry Mechone, but I don't understand what you mean by a termination rated to 75 and 60. What units do those numbers have? and what are these "terminations" you are referring to?
Alejandro

 

[Mechone]

The breaker has a termination value where the wire fastens to the breaker usually 60 or 75 so the the wire must derated to that value ...code and if the wire goes to a wago terminal block same thing. Watch this video it explains go to 5min mark 3 Mistakes I Made Installing a NEMA 14-50 Outlet - YouTube

 

[Davidasailor26]

Thats all nice but you have a huge hole in your information , it depends on termination at both ends and most termination is only rated for 75 and 60 which means you must derate the wire to that spec ...code or burn someones boat to the ground so on 40 amps its a #8 not a #10 is 30 amps

The ABYC tables (at least the ones republished at boathowto.com) would disagree - https://boathowto.com/wiresize/wiresize_tables_abyc.pdf

They say 105C wire, 10 AWG, outside engine spaces, is good for 60 Amps. De-rate that to a factor of 0.7 for being in a 2-3 cable bundle and you're still at 42 A.

 

[Mechone]

The ABYC tables (at least the ones republished at boathowto.com) would disagree - https://boathowto.com/wiresize/wiresize_tables_abyc.pdf

They say 105C wire, 10 AWG, outside engine spaces, is good for 60 Amps. De-rate that to a factor of 0.7 for being in a 2-3 cable bundle and you're still at 42 A.

It has nothing to do with that its what the termination is rated at ...really .Anyways i will go with local code and charts not ABYC it does not apply #8 for 40 amps not #10

 

[APP314]

The breaker has a termination value where the wire fastens to the breaker usually 60 or 75 so the the wire must derated to that value ...code and if the wire goes to a wago terminal block same thing. Watch this video it explains go to 5min mark 3 Mistakes I Made Installing a NEMA 14-50 Outlet - YouTube

Thank you for your reply Mechone, I never came across this issue before. I'll read some more before I comment but something seems odd here as I've not seen any such derating on the ABYC standards. Have you?