Evergreen

[rgranger]

Looking back at post #9 and the watershed questions. About 12 years ago, I was doing some water analysis studies ….working with an environmental scientist. We were quantifying the effects of placing barriers between streams and the cattle that occupy a field vs the concentration of nutrients that make it into the streams. This was all being done in the piedmont area of central VA. This was all tied to a Chesapeake Bay watershed study. Turns out that cattle stomping through the streams was a major source of water pollution (hundreds of miles away).

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Turns out that cattle stomping through the streams was a major source of water pollution (hundreds of miles away).

No sh!t, Sherlock? Same issue with the Neuse River. WRAL Documentary: New Trouble on the Neuse River

 

[JamesG161]

Turns out that cattle stomping through the streams

Ban Cattle Stomping Now!!!

Gentle Cattle Walking to be monitored, by Cattle Tipping Association.

Cattle Burps and Farts under close scrutiny.

Eat more Fish with Heavy Metal content...
Jim...

 

[rgranger]

 

[jon hansen]

John, the pilot was in command of the vessels navigation. not the AB, not the 3rd mate, not the Captain. that is the law. the command of the vessel is handed over to the pilot. maryland will not allow the vessel into it's waters without the captain handing over the command to their pilot. the pilot was not "helping" command the vessel, the pilot was "in command of the vessel". there is no passing the buck when commanding a vessel. as pertaining to the navigating and maneuvering of the ship in a given area to which he is trained.

yes, in the real world the findings it says that the third mate could of, would of, should of, been more active in sounding the alarm that they missed their turn. it's nice to remind the crews that team work is best. prolly don't speak english.

100% the fault of the maryland state pilot. total loser. whinny dweeb. should be banned from even commanding a 12' row boat. was all bent out of shape over the line handlers when departing the dock. that's a nothing burger. why be upset. it all pays the same weather you depart fast or slow. 55 minute personal phone call? then texting on his phone? total loser!





yes, i used weather on purpose, yawl

 

[garymalmgren]

Re: The Able Bodied Seaman at the helm failed to be aware of the route, failed to raise an alarm when the individuals in charge put the ship in danger. Likely raising the defense “I was just following the commands of the deck officer “.

I was port engineer in Singapore for 3 years and I can tell you that some pilots are REALLY testy about their job and position.
No one on the bridge except the captain was permitted to talk to them.
As for the AB failing to be aware of the route, it is his or her job to follow the pilots instructions, not to tell the pilot what to do.

 

[jssailem]

As for the AB failing to be aware of the route, it is his or her job to follow the pilots instructions, not to tell the pilot what to do.

Just like the "AUTO PILOT" I have working in my cockpit.

It is not that I do not appreciate the chain of command onboard a large ship. I can imagine the strain of a Helmsman who knows that the ship missed the turn and that he must follow the last command. There is no creativity in the world of the Able Bodied Seaman.

Just goes to emphasis the responsibility of command.

There are captains who have been so engaged with a task that they have lost situational awareness of the ships track. I suspect that if informed they might decide to alter course or command full reverse to avoid a more difficult situation.

The Pilot in this case appears to be fully embroiled in the problem.

Aboard a US Naval vessel, even if a pilot is aboard and issuing commands to proceed through the harbor, the CO never relinquishes command responsibility of his ship.
At the age of 13, I was on the pier awaiting the arrival of the ship on which my dad was the Supply Officer. The ship was in San Francisco Bay on one of those foggy days with a pilot guiding the helm. Confusion occurred, and the ship contacted the piling of the Bay Bridge. Damaging the ships bow, delaying the ships arrival, and putting the ship in dry dock for 4 months. During those days in dry dock at Hunters Point, there was an unanticipated Change of Command ceremony.

Reading the investigation report provides an insight into the challenges onboard a large ship.

 

[jon hansen]

well, an AB is a trained able bodied seaman. they are trained lockouts. they are trained to report anything of interest to their superiors. to not speak up would be poor seamanship. as i was once told as a young pup,, an accident while 100% the commands responsibility , could be 95% the helmsman's fault, but not in this case.

the evergreen was not making a dock or even in a harbor. it was in an easy peezey channel. the command of the navigation of the ship is not the command over the entire ship. the pilot is not in charge of the crew not in the pilot house. he is to be telling the crew in the pilot house what he needs done to navigate the vessel, i.e. where he need them to steer the ship to. in the harbor, working with tugs, tying up, using the thrusters, letting go, the ships captain is going to be standing right there making sure he dosen't hurt the boat. and as a link to the entire crew as needed.

say a thruster kicks out. the pilot would not know who to call. the captain would of course. but out in the big bay with a wide, well marked channel, a captain will choose such time to catch his meal. only a total BOZO would forget to make the haul over to the new course. the AB is from asia, he is not going to know the nuance of that channel in that bay.
i
the report says it all, it was 100% the fault of that self distracted pilot.

that pilot should of been telling the crew what's coming up, when he'll be calling for a change of course, tell them to change the course, make sure they are settled in to the new course, reading drift and drag and current and wind to stay steady on the course. yeah, it's called piloting a ship. he was playing on his phone and his mind was never on the task at hand. he should be in jail.

the Master of a ship, we call captains, is a different job than a Pilot of a ship.
a pilot knows a very specific area of a waterway. every little up to date detail. the master of an ocean ship won't know ever harbor and channel in an up to date awareness. hence the pilot. the same master is going to keep a close eye on the pilot in all the tight places. that's his job. but in the real world, catching a meal out in the middle of the bay with an easy channel to which the pilot is to know so well is normal.

 

[Will Gilmore]

Even if the captain is right there, keeping a steady watch on the pilot to whom the captain has handed over care of his ship, the captain can not be expected to always know the waters or the dangers. That's why a pilot has a job to begin with. The pilot could run that ship aground right before the captain's very eyes and the captain could easily not know it was about to happen before the sudden stop.

-Will

 

[jssailem]

I have not been a Ship‘s Master like Jon.
And while I understand the value and role a Pilot serves bringing a ship into port, I find it difficult to consider that a Ship’s Master just shuts down and ignores his ship when the Pilot’s in command. This past summer, I had the fortune to meet and listen to a Puget Sound pilot discuss the issue recreational boat skipper’s face when sharing the channel with ships under Pilot’s command. He presented the bridge situation as a team and he was the visiting QB.

He shared the concerns a pilot has when he sees a small boat crossing the ships path and then disappears from view. He knows there is nothing he can do. Sail boat or not the ship is not going to stop or leave the channel.

 

[All U Get]

So he missed the turn and went aground at R16 while heading south, .

 

[jssailem]

With @dLj, I sailed that area last May. It would be easy to assume the waters were deep. They look big. We nearly erred by turning too soon and following a route on the West side of the channel. Found ourselves headed towards the Old Baltimore Light.

For the record, the area depths on the chart are in feet not fathoms.

i-Boating : Free Marine Navigation Charts & Fishing Maps

fishing-app.gpsnauticalcharts.com

 

[jaysweet]

This is our home waters, right outside of Rock Creek. It was really interesting to read the Coast Guard report (the relevant part starts at page v, in roman numerals). The crew member steering just continued on course coming up on a slight turn to starboard to stay in the channel. I'm far from being a naval lawyer, but man... it seems like the pilot instructing the helmsman to stay on a course of 161T, rather than "stay on 161T until you hit the waypoint, and then turn to 180T" is just... really incompetent. As I say, I have no experience with professional marine practice (although my dad was a Naval captain, he's not here anymore to comment).

For those who don't care to pull up a chart, that part of the Chesapeake is mostly 20 feet or less, and the main shipping channel from Baltimore down to the Bay Bridge is more like 55 feet. So large ships really, really need to stay in the channel, and the rest of us need to give them plenty of room.

 

[Tin Kicker]

Not at all surprised by the findings regarding the pilot being totally inattentive and this happened right outside our (Main/Bodkin) creek. fwiw, I'm retired NTSB on the aviation side.

Everybody in this area is aware of the numerous buoys leading into the turn and counting down the numbers. As you approach, the straight line of buoys going off to the right from the turn in front of you are super conspicuous. Plus, the shoreline features are both identifiable and fairly close. For anybody who has ever been near the Craigshill turn even just few times, missing it is inconceivable.If the Captain had previously been to the port of Baltimore, I'm surprised he left the bridge for such a crucial turn.

Us locals know to stay the heck out of the way when the big ships come through there because they do it faster than our little boats can top out in speed, and they take a lot of space doing so. It's reportedly (and by appearance from a small boat) not an easy turn for the major ships at speed because the rear is coming so far to the side as the bow comes around, and that's why the turn has the big triangular shape. The big ships at speed need to start the turn just as the bow is just coming to the final buoy. Put a sailboat even near the channel markers of the turn and the ships lay on the horn because they know.

In aviation, we have what's called the 10,000 foot rule for landing, aka "silent cockpit." It used to be that all the way to the ground airline pilots would joke, talk about union stuff, home life, plans, the hot stewardess in back, etc. The NTSB found poor cockpit management in a number of accidents and recommended the FAA pass the rule. Since then once below 10,000 feet, commercial pilots are not allowed to discuss anything other than the landing approach. Cockpit voice recorders are occasionally pulled for audits (FAA required flight operations quality assurance program, or FOQA) and being heard violating the rule can result in a written reprimand. Just the thought of somebody using a cellphone is mind boggling, let alone how much the Evergreen pilot had been.

There are Coast Guard rules about critical phases of operation, but they are paper tigers since there's no follow up similar to FOQA.

The seaman in this incident brings to mind the cultural deference we ran into during a couple of major Asian aircraft investigations n China and Guam, in which the first officers deferred so much to the senior captains that they essentially let them fly into the ground.

Loading…

en.wikipedia.org

 

[jaysweet]

...
The seaman in this incident brings to mind the cultural deference we ran into during a couple of major Asian aircraft investigations n China and Guam, in which the first officers deferred so much to the senior captains that they essentially let them fly into the ground.

I think that last bit is the part that fills me with questions, and a bit of dread. The implication is that the seaman at the helm isn't supposed to be [or isn't responsible for] paying attention to really obvious stuff like: you're in a channel, and the channel has a turn/corner. He's just supposed to maintain the course as ordered? Really? As I said, I'm not a professional mariner, but if that's the way it's supposed to work, that's just a really bad system.

 

[Tin Kicker]

I think that last bit is the part that fills me with questions, and a bit of dread. The implication is that the seaman at the helm isn't supposed to be [or isn't responsible for] paying attention to really obvious stuff like: you're in a channel, and the channel has a turn/corner. He's just supposed to maintain the course as ordered? Really? As I said, I'm not a professional mariner, but if that's the way it's supposed to work, that's just a really bad system.

My father would've knocked me across the room if I'd not said sir or talked back to an adult but kids today have no such concerns. Take that to the next level.

The East is slowly adopting CRM, which is known as cockpit resource management in aviation and crew resource management in other transportation modes. With CRM the seaman would need to follow any direct order given, but also able to first point out potential issues. While many countries have come a long way in a short time, there still is an inbred cultural deference to a more senior person in Asia and other parts of the world. As I said, we've seen perfectly good airliners flown into the ground from this so to see a less educated AB stay quiet wouldn't surprise me a bit.

 

[rgranger]

The seaman in this incident brings to mind the cultural deference we ran into during a couple of major Asian aircraft investigations n China and Guam, in which the first officers deferred so much to the senior captains that they essentially let them fly into the ground.

Loading…

en.wikipedia.org

Malcolm Gladwell wrote a piece about this in The Atlantic.... I think it also appeared in one of his books.

Malcolm Gladwell's Cockpit Culture Theory and the Asiana Crash

When, on Wednesday, a reporter asked National Transportation Safety Board chairman Deborah Hersman about the role of pilot "deference" in the Asiana 214 plane crash, the conversation turned to a media speculation meme that's been bubbling about the deadly incident for about 24 hours: could the...

www.theatlantic.com

 

[Tin Kicker]

Malcolm Gladwell wrote a piece about this in The Atlantic.... I think it also appeared in one of his books.

Malcolm Gladwell's Cockpit Culture Theory and the Asiana Crash

When, on Wednesday, a reporter asked National Transportation Safety Board chairman Deborah Hersman about the role of pilot "deference" in the Asiana 214 plane crash, the conversation turned to a media speculation meme that's been bubbling about the deadly incident for about 24 hours: could the...

www.theatlantic.com

I remember Chairman Hersman trying to make that politically sound good, but we'd been seeing the same in China and elsewhere. I don't think the report reflected it but there was some in the Amsterdam Turkish Airlines accident in 2009 (iirc?) where the brand new first officer had both the training captain and chief pilot in the cockpit. The Korean culture issue found after Guam became the poster child and is in Findings #13 and #32 of the NTSB report, starting on page 73:

Loading…

www.ntsb.gov

 

[Will Gilmore]

The Korean example of cockpit culture has made it to Healthcare. My wife attended numerous seminars about it and the ideas that came from it have been adapted for the OR and other areas of healthcare. It seemed that nepotism was also a big factor in these cultures where accidents went unchecked in the face of superior authority.

-Will

 

[jon hansen]

I think that last bit is the part that fills me with questions, and a bit of dread. The implication is that the seaman at the helm isn't supposed to be [or isn't responsible for] paying attention to really obvious stuff like: you're in a channel, and the channel has a turn/corner. He's just supposed to maintain the course as ordered? Really? As I said, I'm not a professional mariner, but if that's the way it's supposed to work, that's just a really bad system.

with no gps/radar screens, charts, binoculars, common language, visibility, view, local knowledge, you suppose that, the helmsman, not following an officers orders is the way to go. really?