Is Climate Change Scientific, Political, or Religious?

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jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,089
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
A recent thread was closed by moderation with the note that it was too political. It was a climate change debate.

I personally didn't detect anything political in the thread. But I was wondering. Is a Climate Change debate, discussion, argument, one that avoids political or religious aspects, allowed in Sails Call? Or maybe it's just too toxic a topic for friendly discussion here?

Asking for a friend.
 
Jul 12, 2011
1,165
Leopard 40 Jupiter, Florida
Debate? I come here to learn and share about sailing, but I can ignore a thread with the click of a button.

I would suggest that the impact of climate change is settled science, and the causes are mostly known but rapidly being settled. If we want to talk about the impact of climate change on our particular hobby / sport, that would be interesting.

In other words, if you want to talk about properly hoisting crew to the masthead, safety lines, and harnesses, I would love to learn. If you want to debate whether gravity exists above the deck, and that perhaps if a line was to slip I would just float gently to the deck, I am not interested. If you want to encourage people to trust your theory of gravity because you own stock in an ambulance company, I would say you are irresponsible. Thanks for reading.
 

Johann

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Jun 3, 2004
513
Leopard 39 Pensacola
The original thread was about how much effort we should put into being “green” in our sailing life. Specifically, is it a climate sin to sell a 2 stroke outboard instead of junking it. If it is a climate sin, can you gain an indulgence by donating to proceeds to a “green” cause? Then there was some tangent with a CO2 filled soda bottle and the thread got the Galileo treatment…
 
Nov 6, 2006
10,093
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Sooooo... Sequester CO2 by buying up all carbonated sodas and burying the mess? Stop making beer and other alcohol containing beverages? :yikes:
Going to be a tough sell ..
 

Tedd

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Jul 25, 2013
779
TES 246 Versus Bowser, BC
I would suggest that the impact of climate change is settled science, and the causes are mostly known but rapidly being settled.
The first clause, yes. The second clause not so much.

For example, for a given unit of heat energy, the rise in temperature of sea water to sequester that energy is only about 1/1400th of the rise in atmospheric temperature if that heat was sequestered in the atmosphere. In other words, to detect sequestration equivalent to a tenth of degree change in atmospheric temperature we would need to be able to measure a change in mean ocean temperature of about 0.00007 degrees. That's roughly the degree of accuracy we'd need in ocean temperature measurement to determine how much ocean sequestration is affecting our atmospheric measurements.

I'm confident that's a very long way from what we can do. So, no, we're not rapidly settling the causes of atmospheric temperature changes and any resulting climate changes. We simply don't know how this very crucial parameter is operating. We can only infer it indirectly through observations of other phenomena, such as changes in ocean currents. But our only real tool in interpreting those changes in ocean currents is through computer models which themselves could only be properly calibrated by knowing how much heat is being sequestered in the oceans.

This one problem alone tells us that we're actually very far from understanding the causes of climate change. There are others.

I bring this up not to be annoying or pedantic but to make the following point. The attitude you display in your third paragraph is as much a cause of the acrimony surrounding this debate as any actions of the people you poke fun at. Nobody likes being told that they need to change behaviours they've become accustomed to (and likely benefitted from) "for the greater good." But it's a lot easier to convince them if you come from a position of humility and respect, rather than from a completely unjustified attitude of hubris and scorn.
 
Jun 2, 2004
3,554
Hunter 23.5 Fort Walton Yacht Club, Florida
A recent thread was closed by moderation with the note that it was too political. It was a climate change debate.

I personally didn't detect anything political in the thread. But I was wondering. Is a Climate Change debate, discussion, argument, one that avoids political or religious aspects, allowed in Sails Call? Or maybe it's just too toxic a topic for friendly discussion here?

Asking for a friend.
Yes, good luck seeing a meaningful conversation on the internet
 
Jul 12, 2011
1,165
Leopard 40 Jupiter, Florida
The attitude you display in your third paragraph is as much a cause of the acrimony surrounding this debate as any actions of the people you poke fun at. Nobody likes being told that they need to change behaviours they've become accustomed to (and likely benefitted from) "for the greater good." But it's a lot easier to convince them if you come from a position of humility and respect, rather than from a completely unjustified attitude of hubris and scorn.
First, thanks for your perspective on the state of climate science.
I did not mean to poke fun or display hubris or scorn. I did mean to draw an analogy to working very hard to not understand the science or question what I think is an accepted fact.
@jviss - I think that this is one issue with even discussing climate change. My point was to direct the discussion to sailing, like perhaps waterfront property such as marinas will be flooded, there will be a demand for sail training for cargo vessels adopting sail assistance, or such. I feel like any mention of the topic brings out accusation of ill-will.
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,134
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Many people on this issue talk past each; there’s no “debate” unless the points raised are addressed. The reply “everybody knows,” etc., is not a rebuttal to a debatable point. In short, it’s a political issue to most of us b/c politicians campaign on it and make absurd promises to do something about it. It’s tantamount promising to make changes to the weather. Stop thunderstorms, or similar.

People do not understand “science.” It’s the job of scientists to question explanations of phenomena, even of ostensible facts themselves. Theories consistent with observations are usually accepted until something new comes along that’s inconsistent with a theory’s prediction. For centuries scientists “accepted” Newtonian physics even though it was known that the theory could not account for variations in the orbit of planet Mercury. Something was not quite right. Eventually, Einstein replaced Newtonian theory with General Relativity. BUT, it took a specific prediction (hypothesis) from Relativity that could be tested. In this case, the bending of light rays from distant stars that passed near our Sun.

In comparison, the “Theory” of the causes of climate is hardly more than political sloganeering. Yes, the climate appears to be changing, getting warmer perhaps. Why? We don’t know and won’t know until it falls under the domain of the scientific method, if it ever does. One of the most basic principles of scientific inquiry is understanding that correlation is not direct evidence of causation. Yes. Data show correlation between atmospheric carbon dioxide levels and global temperatures historically, but what of it? It’s not even clear from the plots which is leading the other. This is a cycle of hundreds of thousands of years’ history. Not a 20th-century novelty. Close inspection has even raised the point that rising global temperatures are in advance of rising CO2 levels. Makes sense. Warming ocean water at the surface would raise evaporation of CO2 from ocean waters into the atmosphere.

“The Method” says an explanation with the fewest number of postulates is to be preferred over those requiring additional ad hoc postulates. Including anthropogenic CO2 with respect to interpreting the above correlation in present times would be an ad hoc postulation. Scientists sometimes call this “Special Pleading.” From the objective viewpoint, the “Theory” of the causes of climate change today is untested. Is probably is untestable. It amounts to Special Pleading and if left an orphan in the environs of true scientific inquiry and having to meet the commonly applied rigor, would die an innocuous explanation. But it lives on because of global politics, etc. I could continue but I feel a Bot coming on!
 
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walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,541
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
I find the science behind the climate very interesting. What to do about it.. can be interesting but I think thats also more pollinial.

I have seen in the past where the science discussion can remain civil and actaully useful if the thread has a rule that you must fact check yourself and give the reference. Ie, find a reference that agrees with what you want to post.

For example, a comment was made that if (I guess equivalent volumes) of air and sea water took on the same energy and the air temperature change was relitively small, the sea water temperature rise would be difficult to measure. Probably a good point but what I would have liked to see here was some at least somewhat scientific reference that showed how this mattered.

And as an example, if a self check was made, we may have learned that the energy absorbed by air and water are not at all equal, in fact way different. And in this self fact check thread, I would need to back that up with something llike this (and show the source) Ocean Warming - Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution.

Increasing ocean heat is closely linked to increases in atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations, making the ocean an excellent indicator of how much Earth is warming. Since 1971, the ocean has absorbed 90 percent of the excess heat added to the atmosphere by burning fossil fuels and other human activities.

The ocean’s surface layer, home to most marine life, takes most of this heat. As a result, the top 700 meters (2,300 feet) of the global ocean has warmed about 1.5°F since 1901
Post with reference are interesting and we can learn something. Arguments become with a reference, so much less personal.
 
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walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,541
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Another example of how a thread on the science of climate change can be much higher qualitiy if referenes are required.

Another poster said that rising global temperature's are in advance of CO2 levels and that warming ocean waters would basically have released the CO2 into the atmosphere..

Had the poster tried to find a reference, a different story emerges. Here is a reference Ocean acidification.

Because of human-driven increased levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, there is more CO2 dissolving into the ocean. The ocean’s average pH is now around 8.1offsite link, which is basic (or alkaline), but as the ocean continues to absorb more CO2, the pH decreases and the ocean becomes more acidic
.

Ie, if the ocean was releasing CO2, that should be detectable. But the PH measurements show that the ocean is both absorbing CO2 and at the same time, the temperature is rising.

Just another example of how the discussion changes if you have to back up with a reference anything said. Much more civil and useful.
 
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Nov 1, 2017
635
Hunter 28.5 Galveston
A recent thread was closed by moderation with the note that it was too political. It was a climate change debate.

I personally didn't detect anything political in the thread. But I was wondering. Is a Climate Change debate, discussion, argument, one that avoids political or religious aspects, allowed in Sails Call? Or maybe it's just too toxic a topic for friendly discussion here?

Asking for a friend.
Yes.
 

Tedd

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Jul 25, 2013
779
TES 246 Versus Bowser, BC
From the objective viewpoint, the “Theory” of the causes of climate change today is untested.
That's true but I think you're trying to make it carry more weight than it can. The hypothesis that certain gases prevent IR from the Earth escaping into space, and that more of such gases trap more heat, is about as rock solid as anything in science. To that extent, the theory is very well tested and I have no more reason to doubt it than I have to doubt the equations I use to calculate stress in a beam. What happens after that is less clear, and I agree that we want to be careful about becoming overly attached to conclusions we draw based on extensions of those theories, the further we get away from well tested hypotheses. But it's not very helpful to lump the whole thing into a single statement about "the theory of the causes of climate change." That's way too broad a brush. Some parts of the theory are rock solid, some quite speculative, and others in between.

Two things are therefore important. Distinguishing between components of the overall theory on the basis of how well established each part of it is. And considering the probability and consequences predicted by the overall theory, in relation to the probability and consequences of other problems we face at the same time.
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,134
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Another example of how a thread on the science of climate change can be much higher qualitiy if referenes are required.

Another poster said that rising global temperature's are in advance of CO2 levels and that warming ocean waters would basically have released the CO2 into the atmosphere..

Had the poster tried to find a reference, a different story emerges. Here is a reference Ocean acidification.

.

Ie, if the ocean was releasing CO2, that should be detectable. But the PH measurements show that the ocean is both absorbing CO2 and at the same time, the temperature is rising.

Just another example of how the discussion changes if you have to back up with a reference anything said. Much more civil and useful.
As I said, talking past each other. That poster essentially pointed out that the graphs (data) posted on Gov-websites and elsewhere as historical evidence of CO2 causation in some places suggests atmospheric CO2 lagging global temperature by decades to centuries. The link to “causation” historically in the ice core data is weak. However, present-day interpretation of CO2-driven climate change depends on it. To whatever degree CO2 is entering the ocean’s surface today is not germane to that point. Also, the time scales we are comparing here are orders of magnitude of difference. The historical one is not based on “daily” changes or fluxes.
 
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Jul 27, 2011
5,134
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
That's true but I think you're trying to make it carry more weight than it can. The hypothesis that certain gases prevent IR from the Earth escaping into space, and that more of such gases trap more heat, is about as rock solid as anything in science. To that extent, the theory is very well tested and I have no more reason to doubt it than I have to doubt the equations I use to calculate stress in a beam. What happens after that is less clear, and I agree that we want to be careful about becoming overly attached to conclusions we draw based on extensions of those theories, the further we get away from well tested hypotheses. But it's not very helpful to lump the whole thing into a single statement about "the theory of the causes of climate change."
Maybe, but theory must account for the entire climate change pattern if to be of much credibility. When the cycle reaches its peak of high global temps and high atmospheric CO2, what happens to the CO2 that allows glaciations to follow in the down cycle? Does CO2 suddenly stop trapping heat? Are we never coming back to the next ice age the way the cycle “predicts?” If it can’t go back into the ocean through dissolution, then where? Into plant life?
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,541
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
suggests atmospheric CO2 lagging global temperature by decades or more. The link to “causation” historically in the ice core data is weak. However, present-day interpretation of CO2-driven climate change depends on it
I have not seen those graphs showing that decade lag of CO2 to temperature. I assume we are referring to data in the last 200 years where we have been releasing CO2 into the atmosphere and not the ice core record. I find this all interesting so hopefully you dont mind showing that reference. Cant find a reference.. you might have things wrong?

Once again showing the benefit of fact checking yourself.. here is what emerges

Reference GMS: Ask A Climate Scientist - Lagging CO2

In the post-industrial age, the opposite is true. Increasing CO2 in the atmosphere is leading to increased temperature. So two different things happened, one pre-industrial, where temperature was driving the CO2, and post-industrial, where CO2 was driving temperature. Which means a completely different physical-biological process is going on. And we don't understand what the consequence of that change is.
CO2 can act as feedback or as a driver. As always, here is a reference CO2 as a feedback and forcing in the climate system » Yale Climate Connections

A fundamental misconception about the role that carbon dioxide plays in glacial transitions has helped fuel the argument that the lag time between temperature and CO2 in the paleoclimate record casts doubt on carbon dioxide as an important greenhouse gas.

It’s crucial that media reporting on climate change understand an important distinction between the dual roles of greenhouse gases as both forcings and feedbacks.

In the geologic past, carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases acted primarily as feedbacks to external climate forcings. Our current and basically unprecedented experience is that we as humans are directly emitting carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases that affect climate change.
FYI, try to find a reference on what you said. You will find it really cuts out the BS.. which makes for a better thread.
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,134
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Sir. What you are offering are a few of the many examples out there of Special Pleading for a favored explanation. The scientists took the cores and got the measurements; the results came in opposite the expectation with evidence of temperature leading CO2 historically. We are literally thousands of years into the up cycle, near its peak for at least the last 100 yr, when suddenly it’s industrial CO2 emissions driving present-day warming. It’s an ad hoc postulate meant to repair a theory that did not hold up well in the ice core “experiment.” There may be some truth in it; I don’t know. But then I doubt they do either. They want to change the subject to say anthropogenic CO2 is an important Greenhouse Gas today. OK, say it is. Now what? Reverse climate change somehow? Will it not happen on its own?
 
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