Wow, Barry, maybe time to switch to decaf?
I have no problem thinking dead batts could make it hard to start an engine. A shore power charger won't put out enough current for this.
Add a dedicated starter battery
- Thread starter acudavid
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I have no problem thinking dead batts could make it hard to start an engine. A shore power charger won't put out enough current for this.
Whenever I hear somebody say they want a "dedicated starter battery" it makes me pause. You should be clear what it is that you really want in order for anybody to help you. I'm going to suggest that what you are saying is that you want a new battery that you think you are going to use only for starting the engine because you suspect that your current house bank of 2x12v batteries are not fully capable. That's wrong-headed thinking. A house bank should have no problem starting your small engine and that is what most sailors start their engine with. Either your engine is hard starting or your house bank is significantly deficient or damaged. If you have trouble starting your engine, you should sort out that problem first. Adding a new battery simply for the purpose of starting the engine is not going to help a hard-starting engine nor will it solve your house bank problem, if that's the case.
A cruising sailboat typically has 2 battery banks. The house bank is typically 2x12v deep cycle batteries in parallel or 4x6v batteries in series and parallel to give you a hefty 12v battery bank that is normally Position 1 on your 1+2+B selector switch. Every time you start the engine in Position 1, you are starting the engine with the house bank.
The typical sailor also has 1x12v auxiliary battery that is used in case your house bank fails. If you really want a dedicated starter battery, I recommend that you buy a smaller (Grp 27 is fine) 12v deep cycle battery because it will also be your auxiliary and you may need it someday to function as your house bank. Do not buy an automotive battery for a "starter" battery. It should be a deep cycle. Since it is your auxiliary, I wouldn't be all that fussy about the brand as long as it is a decent deep cycle battery. What you do want is for the new battery type to be compatible with your house bank for charging purposes.
Keep in mind, if you truly expect to use the battery only for starting the engine, you will need to put your 1+2+B selector switch in the 2 position when starting the engine. Either that, or you will have to alter your switch configuration to isolate the new battery for starting only. That introduces more complications.
A cruising sailboat typically has 2 battery banks. The house bank is typically 2x12v deep cycle batteries in parallel or 4x6v batteries in series and parallel to give you a hefty 12v battery bank that is normally Position 1 on your 1+2+B selector switch. Every time you start the engine in Position 1, you are starting the engine with the house bank.
The typical sailor also has 1x12v auxiliary battery that is used in case your house bank fails. If you really want a dedicated starter battery, I recommend that you buy a smaller (Grp 27 is fine) 12v deep cycle battery because it will also be your auxiliary and you may need it someday to function as your house bank. Do not buy an automotive battery for a "starter" battery. It should be a deep cycle. Since it is your auxiliary, I wouldn't be all that fussy about the brand as long as it is a decent deep cycle battery. What you do want is for the new battery type to be compatible with your house bank for charging purposes.
Keep in mind, if you truly expect to use the battery only for starting the engine, you will need to put your 1+2+B selector switch in the 2 position when starting the engine. Either that, or you will have to alter your switch configuration to isolate the new battery for starting only. That introduces more complications.
I'm not sure if this is the problem, however, the article below talks about a serious problem with the wiring harness on Universal diesels.
Universal Diesel Engine - Wiring Harness Upgrade - Marine How To
Engine Panel With Ammeter = Dangerous If your Universal engine panel looks like this, and has an ammeter, you are due for some critically important wiring upgrades. The factory wiring, with an ammeter in the panel, is
marinehowto.com
There is really no "typical" anymore. Many people realized that the old-school configuration of having two banks and using them on alternate days resulted in shorter life for the batts, and have gone to a single, big bank. The 1-2-Both-Off switch may indeed be a relic of the past. My previous boat was wired by me according to the method Mainesail has documented. My new boat was already wired that way.
Again, not typical. I have one, but it's a dedicated starting battery.
For these small diesels it probably doesn't matter, but a starting battery is specifically designed for the load a starter motor presents, and this is not how a deep cycle battery is designed.
I can switch things to start with the house bank if the starting battery is no good, and also run house loads off the starting battery in case the house bank is dead.
Very common issue with older Catalina 30's. A member of our yacht club had starting issues with his C30. He changed out batteries and starter with no luck. He finally had a marine electrician look at it. The electrician upgraded the wiring harness and all was good.I'm not sure if this is the problem, however, the article below talks about a serious problem with the wiring harness on Universal diesels.
Universal Diesel Engine - Wiring Harness Upgrade - Marine How To
Engine Panel With Ammeter = Dangerous If your Universal engine panel looks like this, and has an ammeter, you are due for some critically important wiring upgrades. The factory wiring, with an ammeter in the panel, ismarinehowto.com
I agree with all of the above ... I'm assuming that @acudavid has the ubiquitous 1+2+B. I also will have a dedicated starting battery when I complete my electric improvements this winter. I'm starting with the batteries left by P.O. and my smaller "auxiliary" is a Grp 31 AGM deep cycle. The question I always have for others is ... "How do you plan to isolate your "start" battery? I will do it with a DCP switch plus the necessary isolation switches (which are hidden). I guess part of my point is that you don't have a dedicated start battery if you simply buy a new battery and wire it to the #2 post on the 1+2+B switch. You have to plan your switch assembly in some manner to actually isolate a "start" battery.
I prefer a deep cycle battery for the "start" battery because you don't need any extra juice to start the engine that a deep cycle doesn't provide perfectly well. A want the start battery to be able to function as a deep cycle house bank if there were ever any need for it, remote as that actuality may be. That's just my thinking, for whatever that's worth! I'll agree that house loads can be run in a pinch from a start battery that isn't deep cycle.
One question I've had about the auxiliary battery ... Because of it's location closer to the bow, my windlass is powered by the auxiliary directly. The cables run directly from the battery to the on/off switch near the bow for the windlass. The electrics don't go thru a panel for this operation. I can't see any downside to this, and I think it is a good use for the auxiliary/start battery. I typically don't operate the windlass until the engine is already running anyway.
Yes! I'm glad @dlochner brought this up. I had forgotten that I had a similar issue on my 1984 Catalina 36 with Universal M25 engine. They used a square trailer plug connector for the wiring harness, and the glow plug current went all the way to the control panel and back. When I inspected mine the trailer plug was charred and partially melted. I installed a terminal block in the engine compartment and also a glow plug solenoid - a Ford starter solenoid. Wow, what a difference!
Scott, agree, too. One thing I would have done rather than what the previous owner did, would be to install a start battery near the windlass, and run smaller wire to the windlass from the main bank, just to keep that windlass battery charged up. Now I have OO welding cable running the length of the boat!
I isolate the start batter with a simple, single pole, single throw disconnect switch. So, with a disconnect and a 1-2-B-O you can implement this plan.
I am working on a placard so guests on board understand how this all works in case I'm incapacitated, or I lend them the boat. I'm also working on an owner's manual.
Great feedback everyone!
My "mechanic" is a lifelong sailor and my marina's dockmaster just hired him to replace the termite infested mast on his 45 ft Ketch. Jim will do some stuff from memory and researches anything he is not sure about. He used a multi-meter to read switches on my panel (not the dangerous one dlochner alerted me to)_ and said the glow plugs have a problem but still read 10.5V He is going to replace the switch.
I think the batteries are weak. After maybe 30 seconds of cranking in two or three attempts, the battery charger kicks in and indicates the house batteries are down to 60% At this point, the starter cranks slower, thus I suspect not enough starting power. On the first attempt to start, after depressing the glow plug for 60 seconds, the engine usually starts for about 5-10 seconds and then dies. It sounds like it is not getting enough fuel. After that it just cranks. Jim removed and cleaned the injectors and said he thought the motor was only running on one cylinder because one injector was totally clogged, and the motor has major carbon deposits. After this cleaning, the next day the motor started first try (in about 5 seconds) and ran very well. After that, I have not been able to start. Jim suspects an air leak in the fuel line, which he will chase down when he has an open spot on his very booked schedule. My boat was leaking 10 + gallons per day, so Jim fixed this the next day, when he replaced the packing gland of my driveshaft, he got the motor running again, but this time it surged at low rpm's . He removed the injectors again in case they were clogged, but they weren't. The fuel filters look clean. Jim does not think it is anything major and has checked electrical connections and the starter. He is the one who suggested a dedicated starting battery.
As suggested I found a manual for my Universal M-18 which reads clearly that the glow plug MUST be depressed as the starter is engaged. I will try this tonight, when I get off of work.
This forum has been so helpful that I need to give full disclosure of my boat. The goal of my post was just to get things ready for my mechanic, so here it the whole picture. 1979 Cat 30 with radar, autohelm, garmin fishfinder all wired in and working. All thru hulls brass with new valves in excellent shape--according to my diver and mechanic. After the packing gland replacement, now it has a dry bilge. Electric: A + B swich, two 12v Interstate batteries with stickers of 11/21 And in the V berth two 6 volt AGM batteries that look very old and my mechanic says to replace due to expansion stretch marks in the casings. I'm not sure but I think one set is "A" and one set is "B". I left the charger wired as the previous owner had it set up. I think the two 12v batteries are wired parallel and the 6 v are wired in series to yield 12v. But I could be wrong.
I will see if depressing the glow plug as the engine cranks makes a difference and keep the forum posted. Thanks all.
My "mechanic" is a lifelong sailor and my marina's dockmaster just hired him to replace the termite infested mast on his 45 ft Ketch. Jim will do some stuff from memory and researches anything he is not sure about. He used a multi-meter to read switches on my panel (not the dangerous one dlochner alerted me to)_ and said the glow plugs have a problem but still read 10.5V He is going to replace the switch.
I think the batteries are weak. After maybe 30 seconds of cranking in two or three attempts, the battery charger kicks in and indicates the house batteries are down to 60% At this point, the starter cranks slower, thus I suspect not enough starting power. On the first attempt to start, after depressing the glow plug for 60 seconds, the engine usually starts for about 5-10 seconds and then dies. It sounds like it is not getting enough fuel. After that it just cranks. Jim removed and cleaned the injectors and said he thought the motor was only running on one cylinder because one injector was totally clogged, and the motor has major carbon deposits. After this cleaning, the next day the motor started first try (in about 5 seconds) and ran very well. After that, I have not been able to start. Jim suspects an air leak in the fuel line, which he will chase down when he has an open spot on his very booked schedule. My boat was leaking 10 + gallons per day, so Jim fixed this the next day, when he replaced the packing gland of my driveshaft, he got the motor running again, but this time it surged at low rpm's . He removed the injectors again in case they were clogged, but they weren't. The fuel filters look clean. Jim does not think it is anything major and has checked electrical connections and the starter. He is the one who suggested a dedicated starting battery.
As suggested I found a manual for my Universal M-18 which reads clearly that the glow plug MUST be depressed as the starter is engaged. I will try this tonight, when I get off of work.
This forum has been so helpful that I need to give full disclosure of my boat. The goal of my post was just to get things ready for my mechanic, so here it the whole picture. 1979 Cat 30 with radar, autohelm, garmin fishfinder all wired in and working. All thru hulls brass with new valves in excellent shape--according to my diver and mechanic. After the packing gland replacement, now it has a dry bilge. Electric: A + B swich, two 12v Interstate batteries with stickers of 11/21 And in the V berth two 6 volt AGM batteries that look very old and my mechanic says to replace due to expansion stretch marks in the casings. I'm not sure but I think one set is "A" and one set is "B". I left the charger wired as the previous owner had it set up. I think the two 12v batteries are wired parallel and the 6 v are wired in series to yield 12v. But I could be wrong.
I will see if depressing the glow plug as the engine cranks makes a difference and keep the forum posted. Thanks all.
Boats with aqua lift mufflers warn not to crank longer than 30 seconds. If you have this type muffler, you may have sucked sea water into the engine.
I’d recommend fixing the fuel delivery issues first and getting the engine running before you can get an accurate idea on battery health. If the batteries are able to crank the engine for 30+ seconds they might be weak, but I don’t think they’re the root cause of this problem. Also, others can correct me if they know better for this engine, but I had an M12 and even cold it needed 7 seconds of glow plug, not 30 or 90.
You probably misspoke accidentally, but just to confirm, you mean bronze, not brass, right? Brass will lose its zinc and become brittle and weak in a marine environment.
Thanks Davidsailor26. Mechanic said valves were just replaced and looked good. Diver told me the thru hulls were brass and looked good. Hope he knows a good thru hull? We will see at haul out in 19 days. I'll just remember that bronze has an "o" like the ocean. Thx
Hopefully the air in the fuel line issue can be sorted and the engine starts and runs reliably after that. If starting problems persist I wonder if a compression test would be in order. Bad compression could cause hard starting and misfires.
You mean brass will lose its zinc and become brittle and weak in a marine environment, right?
Sure do. Ironic that I misspoke while wondering if the OP misspoke. Edited the post now.
These small auxiliary engines don't require much power to turn them over and your house batteries if they are in good health should be more than enough to handle the engine starting duties. I would suspect the house batteries could be old and weak and susceptible to a drop in voltage when subjected to a cranking load. Have the batteries checked with a load tester. You could also inspect the battery cables for corrosion and dirt at the connectors. There is always the possibility of a worn or faulty starter. In cold weather the batteries weaken and the engine oil thickens and adds drag on a cold start making for slower cranking. Check your batteries, make sure they are in good health and fully charged and that the cable connections are clean tight and open up the throttle about 2/3 and crank the engine to start. Unless you regularly draw down your house batteries there should not be a need for a starting dedicated battery. Adding one just adds to the cost, weight and complexity of your batteries system.
If you think you have a bad battery that is just going to make it worse.
I have an M-18 in King Harbor so our ambient temperatures are the same. I never have to preheat with the glow button more than 15 seconds to get the engine started.
If you can crank the engine without simultaneously depressing the glow button that is what I suggest you do. Preheat the cylinder with the glow button for 15 or 20 seconds, let go of the glow button and then crank the engine. That way all of the battery energy is going to either one or the other. If it doesn't start after a few seconds of cranking you can try that sequence again. If it still doesn't start you need to look at something else such as wiring and connections as discussed in responses above.
For now, you certainly don't need a dedicated starting battery. One 70 to 100 AH deep cycle battery in any decent shape should easily be able to get the starter spinning the engine enough to start (assuming glow plugs and fuel delivery systems are working). If that one good battery doesn't get the engine spinning you likely have some other starter motor or wiring / connection problems as discussed in responses above.
You may be interested in these links. FWIW, while the boat is new to you, the wire harness issue has been around since Noah, and not just on Catalinas.
Your C30 and our C34s share almost identical features and bugs. Start here:
Critical Upgrades: CRITICAL UPGRADES - DO THESE OR ELSE!!!
Also be aware of the C30 resources:
Catalina 30 Groups Link
Subscribe at the web forum:
Catalina30 groups.io Group
*All things Catalina 30 and 309! Sponsored by the International Catalina 30 Assn IC30A. FAQs, Q&A, comments, and experiences especially fixes and modifications invited. Share with over 2200 other owners. Website catalina30.com* *Please join the International Catalina 30 Association.
or by sending an email to:
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This comes from this sbo thread by weekendrken:
1992 Catalina 30
Also: www.catalina30.com
Good luck.
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