Stiff Wheel - Autopilot not fully disengaging?

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mike311

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Jan 3, 2018
7
Hunter 41 Pasadena
I have a 2006 Hunter 41DS with Raymarine autopilot p70. Everything worked fine but recently the wheel remained very stiff after going into standby or turning instruments off. I can turn the wheel, but it is extremely hard to do. The autopilot seems to work very well but I worry it is working extra hard to steer the boat. Yes, the nut is loose on the wheel. I pulled the floor board in the cockpit and didn't really know what I was looking at. In the aft cabin, I can't figure out how to access it from underneath to take a look.

Please offer ideas or suggestions. Any help is appreciated.
 
jssailem

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,867
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
mike311 said:
You have a : Hunter 41DS with Raymarine autopilot p70
Click to expand
Nice information, but it does not tell us what type of AP you have installed.
  1. A wheel Pilot
    1. 1626195943839.png
  2. A linear pilot
    1. 1626195992569.png
  3. An hydraulic pilot.
    1. 1626196037764.png
Images of your system would help.
The clutch release is a good question suggested by @Siamese .
These sometimes stick. You can over power the AP and still steer the boat, but only as an emergency method.
 
M

mike311

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Jan 3, 2018
7
Hunter 41 Pasadena
jssailem said:
Nice information, but it does not tell us what type of AP you have installed.
  1. A wheel Pilot
    1. View attachment 196143
  2. A linear pilot
    1. View attachment 196144
  3. An hydraulic pilot.
    1. View attachment 196145
Images of your system would help.
The clutch release is a good question suggested by @Siamese .
These sometimes stick. You can over power the AP and still steer the boat, but only as an emergency method.
Click to expand
Our owners manual shows it as a linear pilot. It works very well. I'll work on getting pictures. When we go on standby, the wheel is very hard to turn. We have the nut on the wheel loose... is that what you mean by the clutch release?
Thank you.
 
jssailem

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,867
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
mike311 said:
We have the nut on the wheel loose.
Click to expand
Wheels are held on to the gear system with a Nut. There, usually, a wheel brake on the side of the binnacle. The brake stops/hinders the movement of the steering system. The brake should be loose when using the autopilot.

The clutch is an electrical activated system that releases the drive to operate without resistance when in standby mode. Box

Here is the image of the wiring and notes on what should be happening when in standby.
Hydraulic AP Wiring.jpg


There are a series of checks to make to diagnose your issue. First would be inspection of the steering system to see that nothing is tangled up or impeding the freedom of movement. Say a towel or a fender that is jamming the cables/chains or quadrant .
 
M

mike311

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Jan 3, 2018
7
Hunter 41 Pasadena
John, Thank you for your help. I was able to disconnect the autopilot part that connect to the rudder and the wheel was still stiff. Then I disconnected the wheel from the rudder and the wheel turned freely. So the problem is in the rudder. I swam under the boat and could not see anything jammed between the rudder and the boat. It looked like it should turn. I don't know if it is safe to continue using as is?
 
jssailem

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,867
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
mike311 said:
I don't know if it is safe to continue using as is?
Click to expand
I would be hesitant to use the boat without a reliable rudder.
It might take you to pull the boat to identify the issue. There are usually bearings that provide for smooth rotation of the shaft in the rudder tube.
Could the rudder have been damaged? A bend of the shaft could cause such an issue. A friend of my backed into some rocks, the bend was slight but it was warped and did not move smoothly. Additionally the bend made the upper corner of the rudder rubbed on the bottom of the hull. A diver was able to shave off some of the rudder but it was a temporary fix.

You are making progress.
 
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Rick486

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Oct 1, 2007
1,865
Boston Whaler Super Sport Pt. Judith
Another thing to try is connect your emergency tiller and see how that feels. It turns the rudder post directly. I would turn it back and forth and see if it is hung up in any one spot. Also you should be able to see any wobble in the rudder shaft. You should be able to see the rudder tube in the aft lazeratte. Your boat isn't that old. Seems odd.
 
M

mike311

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Jan 3, 2018
7
Hunter 41 Pasadena
We did hit a partially sunken log or stump (I think?) on the ICW in Virginia. We were in autopilot mode and hours later when I took it out of autopilot I didn't notice wheel stiffness because we were literally motoring strait for hours. But as we got to some turns I thought it seemed stiff. Without another wheel to compare and this being a new boat to us, I wasn't sure if it was my imagination that it was overly stiff until I was able to get on a friends boat to see how easily his wheel turned. Anyway you might be right about the shaft. Wondering if they are easily replaced?

Thank you!
Mike
 
M

mike311

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Jan 3, 2018
7
Hunter 41 Pasadena
Rick486 said:
Another thing to try is connect your emergency tiller and see how that feels. It turns the rudder post directly. I would turn it back and forth and see if it is hung up in any one spot. Also you should be able to see any wobble in the rudder shaft. You should be able to see the rudder tube in the aft lazeratte. Your boat isn't that old. Seems odd.
Click to expand
I forgot to mention, using the emergency tiller was the first thing I tried. It was extremely hard to turn the rudder with the emergency tiller.
 
shemandr

shemandr

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Jan 1, 2006
7,488
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
I haven't read this very carefully but if you hit something and the steering is stiff I think the rudder shaft may be bent. Rudder shafts can be straightened by a machine shop. But there's obviously a problem getting it out. Dropping the rudder on the hard may involve digging a hole to drop it into. In the water is possible - you won't flood the bilge because the rudder tube is above the waterline (Or should be). But you have to consider that boat jobs are known for not going smoothly. What if you can't get the rudder out in the water?
 
jssailem

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,867
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Mike. Send @JamesG161 a private message. He has recently experienced the challenge of finding a rudder for his Hunter Saba.
 
JamesG161

JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,751
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
I think this is the page from your Hunter 41 manual on the Autopilot.
H41AP.jpeg


If you disconnected the Linear Drive from the Steering quadrant, then your rudder should turn freely, by the Wheel.

You said NO.
_____
What does your Rudder Position show on the AP display?

If you dive the boat, try to move the Rudder left and right while someone watches that Rudder Position Display.

Look here if you do not have your Owner's Manual...

HunterOwners.com downloads

It is very doubtful that you bent your rudder shaft, although it could be made from a Composite material.
Jim...

PS: You can not drop your Rudder, unless out of the water.
 
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R

Rick486

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Oct 1, 2007
1,865
Boston Whaler Super Sport Pt. Judith
Have you inspected the rudder post tube in the lazarette? On my 44 DS that tube is very thick composite and reinforced with flanges. I can't imagine how that tube could be damaged but it is worth a look. I guess it is possible that the bearings inside the tube are damaged, but again I can't imagine how.
Also, if you dive and have someone turn the rudder, there may be a visible wobble if the shaft is bent.
Here are some rudder bearing drawings I happen to have.
 

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M

mike311

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Jan 3, 2018
7
Hunter 41 Pasadena
JamesG161 said:
_____
What does your Rudder Position show on the AP display?

If you dive the boat, try to move the Rudder left and right while someone watches that Rudder Position Display.

Look here if you do not have your Owner's Manual...

HunterOwners.com downloads

It is very doubtful that you bent your rudder shaft, although it could be made from a Composite material.
Jim...

PS: You can not drop your Rudder, unless out of the water.
Click to expand
Jim,

I have an owner manual but the online version you linked to with color diagrams is much easier to read. Thanks!

The rudder position on the AP display is center when the rudder is center and and moves accordingly with the rudder. The wheel works and the AP works great! We suspected there was an issue in Virginia on our way from Maryland to Ocracoke NC. But we were not sure if we were just imagining it until we got home 4 weeks later and compared it to a friend's wheel. So we sailed hundreds of miles (probably unwisely) with it this way. I was surprised how freely the wheel spins when I disconnected it from the rudder.
 
JamesG161

JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,751
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
mike311 said:
I was surprised how freely the wheel spins when I disconnected it from the rudder.
Click to expand
Here is another important page from your manual.
H41Rudder.jpeg


If you hit something, traveling forward, you might have damaged the "Lower Sleeve" which is the lower rudder bearing.
That could cause the rudder to be in contact slightly with your hull, as @jssailem mentioned.

There are several Hunter boats that had problems with the "Carbon Fiber" Composite shafts.
_____
It may be too difficult to discuss how you disconnected the wheel from the Rudder, in this thread, but I think we may have a terminology issue.
I have become a large boat Hunter Rudder expert, since mine has to be replaced. I will send you a Private Message, on phone contacting me.

Jim...
 
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