Teak cap rail refinishing

[DArcy]

I have the cap rails off my boat and am in the process of removing the old finish, which is fairly old and thin so comes off easily. The question is, what is the best way to refinish them? I was thinking a few coats of epoxy all over before installing, another coat or two after installation and then varnish for UV protection. I really don't have much experience with refinishing teak, other than cetol. What finish schedule would you suggest? What brand of finishes do you suggest?

 

[dlochner]

Sabres have a teak toe rail and keeping a finish on them is an endless conversation and debate among Sabre owners.

Toe rails and your cap rail are often submerged or spend a lot of time with water sloshing up against them, especially when heeled and sailing to windward. This allows moisture to wick up into the wood which eventually causes the finish to lift. The only finishes that are not subject to this issue are porous finishes that allow the wood to breathe, Cetol and oil. However, don't coat the Cetol with the gloss finish, because that is not porous.

This year we will strip all the Cetol off the toe rail, clean it up and use Semco Teak Sealer. This should avoid the moisture problem and leave a nice appearance.

In you situation, I would seal the bottom of the cap rail with epoxy, but not the top. Sealing the bottom will prevent water from wicking up into the rail. I did this on my handrails, sealed the rail where it came into contact with the cabin top. For the top I would either use Semco or a good quality varnish like Epifanes Wood Finish in Gloss and then many, many coats, at least 6 maybe as many as 8 or 9. The more coats you put on now will make future maintenance easier.

Lately I've been using TotalBoat Gleam 2 on some projects. It goes on easily and can be recoated in a 3 or 4 hours which speeds up the process. I don't know if it is available in Canada and I don't know how well it will stand up to weather. It is about 2/3s the cost of Epifanes.

@TomY and @jon hansen both have exorbitant amounts of well maintained teak. I'm sure they will have a few ideas.

 

[sail sfbay]

Nice sanding job on the left!! I recommend talking to local teak finishers fr their experience. Some exterior teak options I am aware of are:

1. Nothing.
2. Sand, teak cleaner, brightener followed by oil every 3 months. Used it successfully on my ski boat transom teak deck. and very happy with that.
3. Sand, 3 coats of natural Cetol (24 hours between coats) followed by 1 coat of Cetol gloss without sanding between coats every 2+ years. That is what I plan to do on 100 feet of teak rail on a powerboat.
4. Sand, 7 coats of varnish with sanding between coats every 6+ years. Only did that once and it only lasted 2 years on my Hunter 31 and that was done by a contractor.
5. Replace with stainless steel and clean/polish twice annually. I like the stainless steel rails on my Hunter 46

These threads might be of interest.

Refinishing Teak Handrails

Having a problem with color of rails after taking down to bare wood. One rail is dark brown and the other is a golden amber, which is what we want. Have used bleach on the dark rail, brightner and stripper and it is still dark. It has been sanded down to bare wood. Ay suggestions

forums.sailboatowners.com

Longest lasting treatment for teak cap rail? - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Teak cap rail, minimal exterior brightwork. Stanchions, chain plates, padeyes, running lights, and solar wiring all run through the cap rail (ketch rig). The prior owner used a rubbed varnish finish

www.cruisersforum.com

 

[DArcy]

Replace with stainless steel and clean/polish twice annually. I like the stainless steel rails on my Hunter 46

I was considering replacing with extruded aluminum. A few Freeport 36 have done this but I decided I like the look of teak enough to deal with the maintenance.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

That sanded piece looks great! I'm not very experienced with refinishing teak but I do know that West Systems does not recommend using epoxy on wood exposed to UV or at least as the only layer. I'd call them for clarification. Total Boat Gleam that dlochner mentioned looks amazing when used correctly. The name speaks for itself!

 

[DArcy]

In the Cruiser Forum link above Awlwood gets high praise. Has anyone tried this varnish? I haven't found it locally but it is available in Canada. A bit more than Cetol or Epiphanes but not too expensive.
My local shop has 4 different types of Cetol:

1. Light
2. Natural Teak
3. Cetol Marine
4. Cetol Marine Gloss

Can I assume Natural Teak is the closest colour to natural teak and "Cetol Marine" is the original orange version?

 

[dlochner]

In the Cruiser Forum link above Awlwood gets high praise. Has anyone tried this varnish? I haven't found it locally but it is available in Canada. A bit more than Cetol or Epiphanes but not too expensive.
My local shop has 4 different types of Cetol:

1. Light
2. Natural Teak
3. Cetol Marine
4. Cetol Marine Gloss

Can I assume Natural Teak is the closest colour to natural teak and "Cetol Marine" is the original orange version?

Yes. Cetol Natural Teak is the best of the bunch, from 5 feet it looks pretty good.

 

[Al Schober]

After 30 years, my choice for exterior teak was to seal it with epoxy then protect the epoxy with varnish.
For epoxy, I use the 2:1 stuff and have had good luck with it - no disasters! Mix by weight, hardener first, 2.2:1. Xylol is a good thinner for a first coat, but use a metal can - not plastic.
For varnish, the high price stuff is fine but I've also had good luck with the inexpensive spar varnish from MinWax and Varithane. If you haven't tried roller application, give it a try using the little foam rollers. I think you'll like it. Quick application gets rid of the 'wet edge' problem.

 

[DArcy]

from 5 feet it looks pretty good.

I was going for the hundred foot yacht look... Looks good from a hundred feet

 

[TomY]

Most important thing I would do is put several coats on the cap rail, all sides, before installing in bedding. If it's well sealed (any coating), the bedding and the coating system will last a long time. If this is done, you should never have to remove those caprails again.

Whether you use epoxy or not, if you varnish, Al has the best advice: Use a foam roller.

Roll and tipping will lay on a more uniform coat of varnish than you'll ever do with a brush alone. And it's those uniform coats of spar varnish, plus a maintenance coat or two each spring, that will give you the longest life of the system. Your base needs to be thick enough to last and protect (from UV), the wood.

Cetol will protect the wood just as well and doesn't require as many coats. But you'll want to maintain that coating same as any coating, the get the longest life out of it.

The first thing in your post I picked up on was: "I have the cap rails off my boat and am in the process of removing the old finish, which is fairly old and thin so comes off easily."

Sounds like plain spar varnish. No matter what coating you apply to protect those cap rails, it will have to come off in the future.

 

[Morgan donor]

Teak refinishing is one of the reasons I sold my boat.
Down bay from dlochner is a 70's tartan that has never had an ounce of varnish or sealer on it. Its teak is full thickness, no bungs popping. It is gray. The natural state of weathered teak. They never touch it.
If I knew then, what I know now...

 

[PJL]

Some have mentioned epoxy type finishes. My previous boat had that on the outside teak and it was almost impossible to maintain. When it gets hit the finish will often raise (does not look good!) and then becomes easily punctured. Repair of areas like that typically leave a different coloration due to being finished at different times. Further, it is EXCEEDINGLY difficult to remove!!

I knew someone who did teak finishing professionally and he liked at least 3-4 coats of Cetol the best. If enough coats are used it closely resembles varnish; even without using the gloss Cetol.

 

[WaDoLuP]

I have a different take on the mode of failure. In my upper midwest region, trim might see a temperature swing of close to 200 degF. The differences in coefficient of expansion between the wood and the finish is too great and it fails at the bond line. My best results have been from using a penetrating epoxy first (Smith's is one good brand). Apply a few coats until it no longer soaks in readily and before the last application cures, put the varnish, synthetic varnish, or your finish of choice on top.
The penetrating epoxy goes deep and locks onto the wood and the varnish is chemically bonded to the epoxy. That combination better withstands the contraction and expansion in my experience. My marina mates strip, sand and reapply their Cetol every year or so and I would just clean, lightly abrade with purple Scotch-brite, and add another layer of finish.

 

[dlochner]

I have a different take on the mode of failure. In my upper midwest region, trim might see a temperature swing of close to 200 degF. The differences in coefficient of expansion between the wood and the finish is too great and it fails at the bond line. My best results have been from using a penetrating epoxy first (Smith's is one good brand). Apply a few coats until it no longer soaks in readily and before the last application cures, put the varnish, synthetic varnish, or your finish of choice on top.
The penetrating epoxy goes deep and locks onto the wood and the varnish is chemically bonded to the epoxy. That combination better withstands the contraction and expansion in my experience. My marina mates strip, sand and reapply their Cetol every year or so and I would just clean, lightly abrade with purple Scotch-brite, and add another layer of finish.

Your theory about thermal expansion is mostly correct. Wood is not dimensionally stable when exposed to weather, as it expands and contracts with heat and humidity it can cause a coating to break the bond and fail. Once a small failure occurs moisture enters and accelerates the process because the moisture will cause pressure as it warms in the sun and tries to escape the wood. This will cause lifting and cracking of the finish.

Spar varnishes are flexible and can expand and contract with the wood reducing the possibility of failure. However, eventually UV and weather takes its toll and the finish fails. A common point of failure is a sharp corner. The finish is thinnest at that point and subject to wear allowing it to fail. If you notice the cap rails on @D'Arcy's and @Tom Y's boats are rounded preventing this thin spot. Sometimes aesthetics are actually functional.

Epoxy, even penetrating epoxy does not chemically bond with the wood. Epoxy is a good adhesive and it attaches to and saturates the pores in the wood. This saturating the wood effectively increases the surface area to which the epoxy can bond. There is nothing special about penetrating epoxy, plain old West System can penetrate the wood and seal it. "Penetrating Epoxies" are low viscosity, so are all the other epoxies when they are warm enough. West System at a very warm room temp ~75+° will saturate wood. Warming the wood prior to applying the epoxy will cause more epoxy to be absorbed into the wood grain. Warming reduces the moisture in the wood and reduces the air pressure. Once the epoxy is applied and the wood begins to cool it forms a low pressure vacuum and the epoxy flows deeper into the grain. Sort of like vacuum bagging.

Once applied on brightwork, the epoxy must be protected by multiple coats of UV protection. If the varnish is worn UV will damage the epoxy and the varnish and the epoxy will fail.

Your marina mates are working too hard. If applied correctly with a sufficient number of initial coats, all Cetol needs is a quick cleaning and light sanding before applying another quick coat. Do a little work each year or a lot of work every few years, either way it adds up to about the same.

 

[dirt rd]

Some have mentioned epoxy type finishes. My previous boat had that on the outside teak and it was almost impossible to maintain. When it gets hit the finish will often raise (does not look good!) and then becomes easily punctured. Repair of areas like that typically leave a different coloration due to being finished at different times. Further, it is EXCEEDINGLY difficult to remove!!

I knew someone who did teak finishing professionally and he liked at least 3-4 coats of Cetol the best. If enough coats are used it closely resembles varnish; even without using the gloss Cetol.

“Resembles “is the key word.

 

[TomY]

Your theory about thermal expansion is mostly correct. Wood is not dimensionally stable when exposed to weather, as it expands and contracts with heat and humidity it can cause a coating to break the bond and fail. Once a small failure occurs moisture enters and accelerates the process because the moisture will cause pressure as it warms in the sun and tries to escape the wood. This will cause lifting and cracking of the finish.

Spar varnishes are flexible and can expand and contract with the wood reducing the possibility of failure. However, eventually UV and weather takes its toll and the finish fails. A common point of failure is a sharp corner. The finish is thinnest at that point and subject to wear allowing it to fail. If you notice the cap rails on @D'Arcy's and @Tom Y's boats are rounded preventing this thin spot. Sometimes aesthetics are actually functional.

Epoxy, even penetrating epoxy does not chemically bond with the wood. Epoxy is a good adhesive and it attaches to and saturates the pores in the wood. This saturating the wood effectively increases the surface area to which the epoxy can bond. There is nothing special about penetrating epoxy, plain old West System can penetrate the wood and seal it. "Penetrating Epoxies" are low viscosity, so are all the other epoxies when they are warm enough. West System at a very warm room temp ~75+° will saturate wood. Warming the wood prior to applying the epoxy will cause more epoxy to be absorbed into the wood grain. Warming reduces the moisture in the wood and reduces the air pressure. Once the epoxy is applied and the wood begins to cool it forms a low pressure vacuum and the epoxy flows deeper into the grain. Sort of like vacuum bagging.

Once applied on brightwork, the epoxy must be protected by multiple coats of UV protection. If the varnish is worn UV will damage the epoxy and the varnish and the epoxy will fail.

Your marina mates are working too hard. If applied correctly with a sufficient number of initial coats, all Cetol needs is a quick cleaning and light sanding before applying another quick coat. Do a little work each year or a lot of work every few years, either way it adds up to about the same.

Nice post, Dave. Epoxy is a great adhesive and filler, I use a lot of it.

There is no science to support that as a sealer, epoxy extends the life of coatings.

UV degrades epoxy quickly so you're stuck with the same protective coating system for UV protection, be that varnish or cetol etc, to protect the fragile epoxy.

Other downsides that I see are: application problems with temperature (of product and surface), moisture and problems with the finish UV protective coating not adhering to the epoxy or cracking underneath. Then there is the removal of the failed epoxy (it's a weak coating, with a tenacious grip).

When the UV protective coating is weak or breaks down (they all break down), the epoxy turns yellow. Epoxy doesn't move with moisture changes in solid wood like varnish or cetol.

Still, epoxy is used as a sealer under brightwork but more often than not, the experts (experienced wooden boat people), don't use it as a sealer as often as fiberglass boat owners (don't be offended, wooden boat purists are the least informed about fiberglass boats, believe me).



I use the typical marine sealers from Pettit or Interlux for my first 3 coats. This is a thin penetrating coating that dries very fast. I'm usually working outside so drying quickly is important.

I can get 2 or 3 coats on in a day which will protect the wood if it rains. There's no mixing, little problem with temperature or humidity and no sanding between these coats. These sealers build fast and cut down on varnishing coats.

D'Arcy's cap rails, like the boat I posted (not mine and no epoxy under those, I'm sure), are challenging to protect because they are flat to the sun.

I'd recommend just what you said: Do the maintenance of an annual coat, no matter varnish or cetol. Make that task easy with a good staging plan that puts your hands at a comfortable working height.

The spar varnish system has protected these toe rails for 60 years.

 

[Phil]

I've been using Epifanes Wood Finish Gloss on my Annie simply because that's what they were using at the Morris yard where the previous owner kept her. The VOC level is much lower than Cetol. Not sure how it compares for UV protection, but it definitely looks better than Cetol. So far I've only done touch up and maintenance coats in a few areas after light sanding.

Wood Finish Gloss - Epifanes NA Inc.

Wood Finish Gloss

www.epifanes.com

 

[DougM]

I was going for the hundred foot yacht look... Looks good from a hundred feet

To me, Cetol only looks good from five hundred feet at 50 mph. Even the ”light” is too dark, and successive coats make it darker still. The oil finishes attract crud, and teak itself is inherently oily. Scrubbing what little I have on the boat, to me, seems to be the better choice.