OPINION : CAPE DORY 36 VS. NIAGRA 35 OR OTHER....IS A FULL KEEL AND SKEG RUDDER THE BEST OPTION ??

justsomeguy · Sep 26, 2020

SailingFree said:
tell me what all the Island Packets are going for

Buy that $69,000 IP35 that @CarlN wrote about, or at least look at it very carefully.
New chainplates alone make that boat practically bullet-proof.
Of course, I could be a bit biased.

Jackdaw · Sep 26, 2020

SailingFree said:
that whole caps = screaming is more of a gen X gen Y /snowflake thing which I think is pretty stupid.....but no yelling intended

YOU ARE WRONG.

justsomeguy · Sep 26, 2020

SailingFree said:
Just a tad

But if you really want a go-anywhere boat, you could do a LOT worse.
AMA about the IP35 and it's pros and cons.

dlochner · Sep 26, 2020

SailingFree said:
My dear Wormwood sir.....Baloney !! . ...... how much bluewater experience do you actually have ?? ...... it can't possibly be much when you ignore the absolutely critical issues of hull strength, keel selection, standing Rigging strength / condition and engine condition - none of which you mention in your simulacra discussion....consequently dude - the neophyte and the faker / is certainly not me and is most likely somebody else......liveability and safety below are all there on any bluewater boat......the items you mention lie more on the cosmetic side of the spectrum and, quite frankly - on the more cosmic ( dreamer ) side of the spectrum......You misunderstood my question......and no - head size and gimbled stove capacity are certainly NOT top critical issues as you suggest...... opinions are like *********'s sir and apparently I very well may be talking to one.

@SailingFree I concede your exhaustive experience with Silverton power boats no doubt makes you an expert in the ways of cruising and blue water sailboats. What do I know? I only started sailing 4 years before you were born. And for the past 36 years I've only spent 20 or 30 nights a summer living aboard a sailboat, not to mention cruising and racing aboard many boats. No, my experience refitting a boat for a trip to New Foundland and the Canadian maritimes means I know little about the systems aboard a sailboat and the issues of living aboard at a dock, on anchor, and on extended overnight sails means very little in light of your admitted lack of experience on anything but a 34 ft Silverton Cruiser.

Yep, and my latest project, the restoration of an 85' (sparred length, 65' on deck) schooner and the development a youth tall ship sailing program is the result of my total lack of experience and knowledge of sailing and youth development.

You're right, I have no skills, experience, or knowledge that measures up to your experience aboard a 34' Silverton. So, I defer to you and your exhaustive in-depth knowledge of sailing, cruising on a sailboat, and living aboard a sailboat.

Yes, your self-proclaimed expertise and ability to judge fairly those whom you do not know is remarkable.

Hunter216 · Sep 26, 2020

SailingFree said:
You have absolutely no clue what year I was born

Well you did say in post #7 that you were 54.

Your profile would imply that you have enough sailing experience to enable you to make your own decision on what boat suits you best. You have argued back against just about every opinion given so far so not sure what you are trying to accomplish???

It sort of looks like your just here bashing other forum members, creating conflict and seem to think it’s funny.

Lots of very experienced sailboat owners here. Your loss I guess.

Jackdaw · Sep 26, 2020

SailingFree said:
I AM RIGHT.

Instead of descending into your seemingly go-to 4th grade argument style, I'll just present some facts.

The upper/lower case issue has been going on since the early 1980s, when Sperry/Univac abandoned the much hated 6-bit FIELDDATA character set and adopted the mixed-case 8-bit ASCII. Everyone hated FIELDDATA, and it was widely believed that the only reason they first chose uppercase for FIELDDATA was because one of the designers didn't want to write the word GOD with a lower case 'G'.

Fast forward 40 years, and the internet is full of scholarly reports that note that in addition to all-caps has been considered YELLING for years, it is also harder to read, and slows down reading speed and comprehension. Search yourself or read this as a case.

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So it not a 'gen' thing, not a snowflake thing.

All of that is fact. Please. Retort.

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · Sep 26, 2020

Kings Gambit said:
I can’t understand comments like the above. Effectively, a boat is a boat is a boat, etc. It’s nonsense.

I respectfully disagree and below is some of my logic why.

Take the example of the full keel boat where the rudder and screw are well protected being incorporated into the design of the keel, versus the fin keel and separate spade-rudder design. Or, a skeg-hung rudder versus one that is fully exposed on the end of a rudder post. Far at sea, on your own, the protected rudders are much less likely to be damaged if the boat collides with debris. Far less likely to snag some floating line, etc. Far less likely for the keel and rudder to be severely damaged with an accidental grounding.

None of this is backed in the real world. This is an internet myth. Talk to actuaries and underwriters. There is no statistical evidence that a bolt on fin keel and spade rudder is more likely to fail at sea. If there were it would cost more to insure such a boat for offshore use. Infact is costs less per dollar value of the boat. That is because the number two statistic in a boats likely hood for being a total loss is age. The older the boat the more damage can occur from lack of maintenance that makes a boat more of a risk. The number one statistic in likelihood of a boat being a total loss is crew experience.

Now let's take a look at some of the mechanics. Barn door or skeg hung rudder has three points if attachment to the hull typically. All three have to work in unison. So this is three potential points of failure. Also, the hydrodynamics on this style rudder is much harder, therefore it takes more abuse. While a well designed spade rudder has less hydrodynamic force and only a single point to fail.

Now let's talk about the myth of rudder protection. Yes spade rudders are not connected to a skeg or keel. But the hydrodynamics of water moving past the keel keep objects from hitting the rudder. The reality is that the majority of keel failures are due to poor maintenance regardless of the type.

Blue water means sailing the open sea, far from safe harbor.

And look at the vast majority of boats doing that type of sailing. They are fin keel, spade rudder boata. That is simple facts.

Now-a-days people think to set off the EPIRB, PLB, or SAT phone on becoming disabled. Then, when those classic boats were built, that was much less of an option, if at all. The boats promised to sail the blue waters w/o the skipper and crew having to think about “rescue.“ If you want to test the bluewater chops of your boat, leave your GPS, chartplotter, AIS, EPIRB, SAT phone, cell phone, etc. at home, and set out in your Catalina 27, MacGregor 26, or whatever, for the Horn. Call when you get back.

Why? I'm not a luddite. I don't feel it's necessary to take unnecessary risks. Nothing. And I mean NOTHING you have posted or can post proves a full keel, barn door rudder boat is any safer. Post some actual statistics and maybe I will change my mind. But I would bet my boat you can't.

BTW: Most boats now and “then” are/were lost due to hard groundings. Clearly, if that is a principal risk sailing in the ‘70’s and early ‘8O’s, then you’d want a boat that could survive it and get underway again, etc.

Nope. Don't believe that statement for a second. Provide anything to support that, otherwise it's pure BS.

Sorry man. I like you but you are not providing anything factual in your post.

justsomeguy · Sep 26, 2020

Well, there is something worse than all capital letters.
It's writing walls of text without the judicious use of paragraphs.

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · Sep 26, 2020

SailingFree said:
Circumnavigating on a Catalina 27.....now how many people do you see doing that ??....not too many .....now a Contessa 26 is an entirely different matter.

Patrick Childress. Not one of my favorite people and I argued with him regularly. But he did circumnavigate on a catalina 27.

dlochner · Sep 26, 2020

SailingFree said:
You have absolutely no clue what year I was born AND you're making ridiculous and accusatory statements. I never said you had no experience, skills or knowledge. You're making the whole thing up as you go along.....which a form of insanity. You've said nothing definitive or factual. Feel free to continue

Let's deconstruct this statement. As for your age, did I interpret this statement incorrectly?

SailingFree said:
Ahhhh....that's called PROJECTION of Snow-flake-ness onto someone who is 54 years old ( probably old enough to be your father . ) and NOT a snowflake . ......see how easy that was guy ??

About those accusatory statements. Yes, I will freely admit I referred to you as a neophyte sailor, because by your own admission, you are a power boat guy with no sailing experience. That would make you a neophyte sailor by definition. You freely admitted that your experience was with a 34' Silverton, that's a power boat and unless I missed something you have yet to acknowledge any sailing experience.

SailingFree said:
No.....wrong again....I've owned 34 foot Silvertons my entire life and grew up on my dad's Silverton....but that's on the power side.... We're talking sailboats here

As for accusatory, this quote would fit the definition of being accusatory and derogatory, as well as inaccurate.

SailingFree said:
My dear Wormwood sir.....Baloney !! . ...... how much bluewater experience do you actually have ?? ...... it can't possibly be much when you ignore the absolutely critical issues of hull strength, keel selection, standing Rigging strength / condition and engine condition - none of which you mention in your simulacra discussion....consequently dude - the neophyte and the faker / is certainly not me and is most likely somebody else......liveability and safety below are all there on any bluewater boat......the items you mention lie more on the cosmetic side of the spectrum and, quite frankly - on the more cosmic ( dreamer ) side of the spectrum......You misunderstood my question......and no - head size and gimbled stove capacity are certainly NOT top critical issues as you suggest...... opinions are like *********'s sir and apparently I very well may be talking to one.

In these quotes you are using psychological terms and applying them to an individual. That could be construed as practicing psychology. If so then you are aware that the APA looks askance diagnosing people without going through a proper and thorough evaluation. Do you have a license to practice psychology or psychiatry?

SailingFree said:
You have absolutely no clue what year I was born AND you're making ridiculous and accusatory statements. I never said you had no experience, skills or knowledge. You're making the whole thing up as you go along.....which a form of insanity. You've said nothing definitive or factual. Feel free to continue

(emphasis added)

SailingFree said:
Ahhhh....that's called PROJECTION of Snow-flake-ness onto someone who is 54 years old ( probably old enough to be your father . ) and NOT a snowflake . ......see how easy that was guy ??