Floor flooding.

[Scott T-Bird]

Trying to piece together some clues based on what we (me and surveyor) have seen on this 20 year-old boat:

1. Bilge isn't super clean. Steel plates under the keel bolt nuts have minor corrosion. It didn't look alarming to either me or surveror. (didn't take picture)
2. Bilge pump runs, but float switch didn't operate (after all the defense I have offered for Rule - it's a Rule ). Even found a new one in a package in one of the lockers.
3. Galley floor has been painted. Scum line observed about 2 inches up the bulkhead next to engine compartment.
4. I noticed an odd amount of rust on the engine pulley - just now realizing it can correspond to the scum line on the wall right next to it (when the pulley is turned to the right orientation).
5. Owner describes replacing the PSS bellows in 2017.

I'm wondering if there was an event that led to water over the floor boards. The flooring looks pretty good for 20-years in my opinion. I don't see any sign of floor damage. Just wondering if such an event should cause me significant concern, or if it nothing to worry about.

Flooring looks fine to me. Access to bilge is under that floor ring.

It just dawned on me that the rust on the bottom pulley would be very near floor level, if it was turned that way while the floor was flooded. You can't see it in the photo, but there is a very faint scum line on the fiberglass just to the port side of the engine (in the galley). Also, the floor has been painted.

 

[mdidomenico]

do any of the through hulls or piping looking new? i'm certainly no expert, but if the boat flooded up to the level of the crank pully, it doesn't seem likely it was rain water. and even if it was, the plywood walls would show punkiness at the bottoms. it seems resonable to hypthosize that a thru-hull let loose and it was caught early on, which would led me to believe the scum line around the hull and (if) the plywood being okay

 

[capta]

If the water got to the bottom of the bulkheads then you will probably have some wicking up the plywood and that could lead to some structural weakening and problems with the veneer. In the bottom pic the wood next to the engine stringer is dark, indicating what I said above and the batten from the floor to the wall is probably not OEM, but a result of water in that wall/floor joint weakening the connection.
The floors are most likely veneer on plywood and damage could be underneath. Perhaps that's why the floors were painted?
Also, if the water, especially saltwater, got to the underside of the engine, there is a good possibility that it is rusting badly. Eventually that could require a new oil pan and/or engine removal for repairs.
I doubt any of this would make the boat unacceptable for a day sailer or near-coastal cruiser, but I probably wouldn't want to put her through a norther in the Gulfstream. Any damage also might become more evident as time passes, lowering her resale value, but those are choices only you can make. I'd certainly try to get the price down a bunch if it was worth the haggle to you.

 

[sail sfbay]

Previous water damage ................walk unless you can absolutely confirm no residual issues through hull moisture meter inspection, engine inspection, rigging inspection and get a price to remove engine rust and pain engine and engine mounts. My 2 cents

 

[dmax]

Strange - if it was flooded, it would have to have remained flooded for a period of time for the pulley to rust like that. I had a boat (O'Day 302) that sank in 3 feet of water when the keel fell off and was flooded over the floorboards for about 12 hours before they could get in on shore. The yard flushed the interior with fresh water. The engine (yanmar) had no rust on it at all from that experience but the floorboards were ruined and had to be replaced. Maybe there was standing water in the engine bilge left for a long time that covered part of the bottom pulley? The drive pulley also seems to have some rust on it like it was sitting in salt water.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Just to clarify, the hull & deck have no moisture issues. No indication of thru-hull issues. No sign of water entry from the deck. My only suspicion is that there may have been a one-time issue with the PSS bellows that was immediately corrected. Rust on the crank pulley is limited just to the very bottom and is just light or moderate, not deeply corroded. Scum line is below the motor mounts. I don't know about construction of galley floor. It appears to have a vinyl coating, possibly on plywood and it was painted. There is no sign of weakness, only that it was painted. The various battens next to the engine compartment are not finished and I know how photos exaggerate the color of the stains. I see them in the photo, but in person, it is not even noticeable and no sign of weakness in either the battens or the walls. The teak & holly floor boards were all inspected (screwed-down panels also lifted up). They are 3/4" thick (at least) no sign of water damage on surface or underneath. Very solid and no moisture and no sign of any historic moisture. My suspicion is only that it could have been a one-time episode for no more than a day or 2 and immediately corrected. If I had any suspicion that water intrusion was a chronic issue, I wouldn't be asking the question.

My only question is whether or not a one-time flooding episode should cause any concern. I hear you about the pan - but if exposed only one time? Is that an issue? The surveyor didn't seem to think there was any issue with it. He said I could clean up the pulley with emery cloth. A little dismissive, I know. We had a discussion about it. He thought that the PSS might have been in response to a failure of the packing gland. It seemed to be no big deal. I'm not expecting a 20-year old engine to look perfect, but I thought the rust on the pully wheels was a bit unusual. We talked about the grime as a result of rubber hoses being old and not the best quality, and the load on the alternator belt. Engine performance will be evaluated under load. Fuel and oil looked fine.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

When I look very closely at magnified photos of the teak & holly flooring, I see some areas at the edges that look slightly stained or the varnish is slightly damaged, as if moisture caused it. But there is not nearly enough evidence to make it really obvious. That leads me to my question about whether or not a one time flood for short duration should cause any concern. I don't have any concern about the integrity of the floors and bulkheads. There isn't evidence of any permanent damage to wood. Wood is never really affected by short periods of water or moisture (only the finish might be affected). It takes much longer exposure to water for any kind of permanent damage to occur to the wood, and by then it would be very obvious. My only concern is about the extent to which the engine could be affected. I'm concerned that rust, once started, is more affected by moisture in the air that continues to cause corrosion long after the initial wetting, especially if it was never completely cleaned from the exposure to salt.

 

[Calif. Ted]

The plywood floor panels are 3/8", except for the sections over the bilge which are 3/4". The floor actually looks amazing, "like new", on every Cat I've owned the holly strips turn dark from exposure to light over time and the teak lightens a little so colors are reversed.
Check the panel regarding bilge pump, the 320's have a couple switches for the bilge pump, one of which overrides float switch.

 

[Bob S]

Looks like the flooring has a coat of epoxy on it. Water damage could come on the hard from winter storage too. Depends on whether or not she is covered through the winter. Check the oil pan for rust. It's lower than the crank shaft pulley which doesn't look that bad compared to the water pump pulley. They all need a cleaning and light sanding or better, replaced with serpentine.

 

[MikeHoncho]

The pulley would not have that perfect line where the paint ends and rust begins from submersion. The paint would be heaved at the line from rust underneath it. It looks like the paint was removed for some reason then surface rust come on. Coincide that with the cabinets and doors show no sign of long term submersion (bowing, failed joints) I'm thinking the idea of submersion isn't a solid one. Plausible but not likely. The floor looks replaced. Floors get replaced on sailboats.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

The pulley would not have that perfect line where the paint ends and rust begins from submersion. The paint would be heaved at the line from rust underneath it. It looks like the paint was removed for some reason then surface rust come on. Coincide that with the cabinets and doors show no sign of long term submersion (bowing, failed joints) I'm thinking the idea of submersion isn't a solid one. Plausible but not likely. The floor looks replaced. Floors get replaced on sailboats.

I just replace the flooring in my Starwind! It was 36 years, though.

 

[RitSim]

Do you have a foot operated water pump for sink rinse? If so, I had a similar issue when the pump internals froze and dislodged a rubber diaphragm.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Scott, perhaps I missed it, but you keep asking us to help you with "only" pictures, which do help, is the PO unavailable? Or perhaps unresponsive?

 

[Davidasailor26]

Scott, perhaps I missed it, but you keep asking us to help you with "only" pictures, which do help, is the PO unavailable? Or perhaps unresponsive?

I get the impression the PO isn’t “previous” yet; still in the survey stages. A seller (or broker) would be likely to say “oh yeah, nothing bad ever happened there, just a bit of rust”.

 

[Will Gilmore]

In the bottom pic the wood next to the engine stringer is dark, indicating what I said above and the batten from the floor to the wall is probably not OEM

If everything looks, sounds and tests satisfactorily with a surveyor's blessing, it is likely a sound vessel even if there was some minor flooding. However, there may still be further steps to take, in cleaning out/drying out, other than the floorboards and engine parts. Looking at the picture capta pointed out, I zoomed in on the base of the cabin wall panels in the earlier picture. It looks like the bottoms sit in molded slots at floorboard level. If water came up that high, the hidden bottom edges of those panels could have been overlooked when drying out. Certainly the last picture, as capta said, shows some wicking of water to the level of the batten in the picture.

It doesn't appear to be a current problem but it is an issue to pay attention to. It wouldn't turn me away from serious consideration of the boat. I see nothing there nor have read anything in your descriptions that make me think the boat isn't sound.

If you are looking for something with no issues to be addressed after purchase, walk away, if you expect to have to do a little light repair and mod after purchase, she looks like one that offers minimal problems, go for it.

The best of luck to you. Now show us the whole boat so we can admire her beauty and applaud your taste and luck.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Tally Ho]

My boat “flooded” before I bought it when the shrink wrap or whatever they covered her with over the winter dropped into the cockpit, covering the scuppers. Rain and snow eventually filled the cockpit and flowed over the companionway step. At least that is the story from the broker. Boat had a new teak/holly sole, and a brand new genoa, both of which were casualties of the water.

I have not regretted the purchase....

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Yes, we are still in the phase where we decide to go forward or walk away. Basically, the survey said the boat is worth it's price. Finding a 20-year old boat that looks like a showroom model may be a near-impossible task. I get that. I'm just questioning a few potential red flags. I don't like the idea of posting photos of a seller's boat and inviting an avalanche of condemnation. That wouldn't be right. So I am trying to limit the exposure while trying to get thoughts to help me. So far, the comments have been very helpful. I think I know the direction I'm heading so stay tuned. I've probably read and learned enough to help! Thanks all!

 

[JamesG161]

The Galley sink drain and the vent on the PSS seal can...

Squirt
________
A non-functioning bilge pump, that was discovered quickly.
____
On my first 100 gallon water tank fill, I was monitoring the level gauge [incorrect] and then saw the floor flooding.
There was a seam on the plastic tank separated. [repaired by me, non issue now]
_____
Rust is not a disease that "spreads". Engine pulleys look in unused shape, but good in picture.
Cyclical condensation will cause the pulley lower part to be more "exposed".
______
Scum line is an indicator, but your survey is saying not a big issue of below scum line damage.
Jim...

 

[JamesG161]

I don't like the idea of posting photos of a seller's boat

Post the Broker web link for his pictures. Condemnation is very tough from a broker's pictures.
Jim...

 

[JamesG161]

Here is Broker's first picture of my Engine. Note engine mount.


They did not sell it quickly so Broker said fix Engine mount.

Remedial silver paint.

This is my engine now.


My point is you can easily fix minor damage to your standards.
Jim...

PS: This is 21 yr old boat.