Electric Ferries Coming to Maine?

Oct 22, 2014
21,166
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
A recent WSJ article discussed Ontario providing electricity to the hungry energy folk in Massachusetts.

On the surface it would appear they have an abundance of electricity. I would conjecture that if they have an abundance, that using it for "Ferry Power" makes sense. But I wonder, if they have abundance, why are they not looking for ways to reduce the cost to their own community? Perhaps the Ferry Power will be free and the transit costs will fill the coffers what with tourists jumping aboard for the excitement of "Power" boating.
 
Jan 4, 2010
1,037
Farr 30 San Francisco
In ontario the it is called ontario hydro. The grid there is pretty clean. So I wonder what happens if we replace the 4 520Kw electric motors with some 500hp diesels? Here is one the Volvo D13-700 515Kw motor it is rated at 212 g/kwh so .33 hrs of 4x500kwx212g
Gives me a fuel burn of 140kg of diesel which is about 160liters, 40 gallons give or take for one 20 min trip. What is the price of diesel?? $2.50? so that is $100 of fuel vs electric at $66-100. So on a cost side electric is certainly cost competitive with diesel. This will use Li-ion batteries which have high round trip efficiency
 
Oct 22, 2014
21,166
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Li-ion batteries which have high round trip efficiency
Yes they do but a hell of an environmental impact. At least until we discover ways to mine the lithium from some planet, asteroid or comet. And what happens when the batteries are worn out. Do we ship them to China or India for recycling?
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,754
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
Someday this will be a good idea but I wish they had thought about getting enough charging capacity on shore. Not having that ready in time makes this all pointless.
I can't say much about any of this except, I can see a work around for the charging solution. A bank of large capacitors could gather charge at each end of the ferry's route while the ferry is away and charge the ferry from a capacitor back instead of directly from the grid.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
Sep 22, 2018
1,869
Hunter 216 Kingston
A recent WSJ article discussed Ontario providing electricity to the hungry energy folk in Massachusetts.

On the surface it would appear they have an abundance of electricity. I would conjecture that if they have an abundance, that using it for "Ferry Power" makes sense. But I wonder, if they have abundance, why are they not looking for ways to reduce the cost to their own community? Perhaps the Ferry Power will be free and the transit costs will fill the coffers what with tourists jumping aboard for the excitement of "Power" boating.
Oh if it was that simple :)
In the general KIngston Ontario area there is a pretty high concentration of “green” energy production including wind farms on both Wolfe and Amherst Islands. There are other wind projects and plenty of large scale solar. There is also a new fossil fuel powered generating station being constructed to replace the aging one. The “old” plant’s purpose was to fill the gap in the event of a grid emergency. I’ve heard it sat idle for most of its life!

The economics are complicated and above my pay grade but it goes something like this.
The provincial government decided to promote green energy so they signed contracts to make the production “profitable”. The rate the government pays out is really high. There are times when production exceeds demand and the government has to pay a penalty to give the excess power away! Hmmm who pays for that, the local taxpayer and consumer.
The ferries are also a hodgepodge of free vs fee based on government decisions over time making it all seem unfair.
But would I choose to live in any other place NO ;)
 
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Oct 22, 2014
21,166
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
One's home is their's why leave...:biggrin:

On a side note, we just had a Solar farm installed on a beautiful hill where Pinot Noir Grapes could have been planted. :banghead:We get sun about 6 months out fo the year. The rest is grey fog and rain...

Maybe that is why I like to go north and sail in Canada....:what:
 
Sep 22, 2018
1,869
Hunter 216 Kingston
I can't say much about any of this except, I can see a work around for the charging solution. A bank of large capacitors could gather charge at each end of the ferry's route while the ferry is away and charge the ferry from a capacitor back instead of directly from the grid.

-Will (Dragonfly)
As I understand this is the model for the two Ontario ferries. Big “tank” of charge sitting on the dock that can rapid charge the ship “tank” while its docked. The dock “tank” is “filled” from the grid. I’m not sure if the capacity and control mech for the dock tank allows for off peak operation???

A commercial example of this is Tesla’s Powerwall and PowerPack systems.
 
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Sep 22, 2018
1,869
Hunter 216 Kingston
One's home is their's why leave...:biggrin:

On a side note, we just had a Solar farm installed on a beautiful hill where Pinot Noir Grapes could have been planted. :banghead:We get sun about 6 months out fo the year. The rest is grey fog and rain...

Maybe that is why I like to go north and sail in Canada....:what:
Yes some of the commercial scale solar here is located on what used to be farmers fields. Land is already cleared and accessible from roadway where transmission lines are already, farmers are hurting financially partly because they can’t afford their Hydro bills!! ;)
 
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TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,759
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
Oct 19, 2017
7,754
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
There are economic benefits for all in the development of any new large scale industry. Infrastructure change over may be hard to pay for, but it always increases employment and holds promises for future profits for someone. Which side of the equation to be on is the real question; Old guard or new groundbreaker.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
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Sep 22, 2018
1,869
Hunter 216 Kingston
It'll all boil down to the overall cost. If it can save the islanders and the state (most ferry's are subsidized in Maine) $$ in the long run, electric ferry's will be here before you know it. We'll all benefit from the carbon reduction.

There are no deniers of 'cheaper'. :)
There are lots of smart people that can “spin” numbers on spreadsheets to have any outcome they want. You want to see less expensive... no problem ;)

I believe it also comes down to who is holding the purse strings at decision time and what pressures they are facing in the moment.

The WI ferry was fee based and township funded until the local elected official with enough political clout got it converted it to be part of the provincial highway system, so now everyone rides for “free”. The Amherst Island ferry a few miles away but in the political opposition’s area of support stayed fee and local government funded. Hmmmm ;)
 
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Sep 22, 2018
1,869
Hunter 216 Kingston
Oct 29, 2016
1,915
Hunter 41 DS Port Huron
Yes the funding is just laughable how are emissions reduced by running a diesel to charge the batteries, won't the diesel have to generate near the same amount of power as is being consumed? Our tax dollars hard at work.........
 
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PaulK

.
Dec 1, 2009
1,242
Sabre 402 Southport, CT
Yes the funding is just laughable how are emissions reduced by running a diesel to charge the batteries, won't the diesel have to generate near the same amount of power as is being consumed? Our tax dollars hard at work.........
Absolutely wild. That’s why diesel-electric locomotives aren’t used for pulling trains anywhere....
Why would they ever have cooked up such a cockamamie system as that, some 70 years ago, and then kept using it?
 
Oct 29, 2016
1,915
Hunter 41 DS Port Huron
Why would they ever have cooked up such a cockamamie system as that, some 70 years ago, and then kept using it?
I feel so inept when I am near you.

They use diesel locomotives to control torque more precisely without the need for any complex gearing, not for improved efficiency or to reduce emissions.

So tell me Diesel over Electric, whether it batteries or motors to what efficiencies do they run? You can't generate power without losses, so again how does that reduce emissions? You need x HP to push the boat it will take x+losses to generate the hp.....
 
Sep 22, 2018
1,869
Hunter 216 Kingston
Yes the funding is just laughable how are emissions reduced by running a diesel to charge the batteries, won't the diesel have to generate near the same amount of power as is being consumed? Our tax dollars hard at work.........
My quip above was about using the funds from the Volkswagen diesel efficiency fraud to fund the development.

The refit seems like they will remove two of the four diesel generators, have battery charging while docked and use the remaining two diesels if/when required. Not all bad in theory.

This is a quote from Washington State

Volkswagen federal enforcement action
The trustee for the federal Volkswagen settlement has certified Washington as a beneficiary to the settlement’s environmental mitigation trust. The trust allocates $112.7 million to Washington to mitigate environmental damage caused by pollution from the violating VW vehicles.

The settlement resolves violations of the federal Clean Air Act after VW installed illegal software that cheated emissions tests on many of its diesel vehicles. Under the settlement, money can be invested in projects that replace or repower eligible vehicles, vessels, and equipment with new less-polluting diesel engines, alternate fueled (compressed natural gas, propane, or hybrid), or all-electric engines and developing charging infrastructure for electric vehicles. The Governor designated Ecology to lead Washington's efforts to manage the settlement funds.

Hybrid-electric Jumbo Mark II ferry
We are dedicating up to $35 million to convert the first Washington state Jumbo Mark II ferry to hybrid-electric power. Allowing one of the state's biggest ferries to run primarily on battery power — instead of the ferry's massive diesel engines — will reduce fuel consumption by 400,000 gallons a year. Over the life of the ferry, the hybrid conversion will cut carbon dioxide emissions by 172,000 tons, and nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions by 1,540 tons.

More importantly, installing batteries and allowing the ferry to run on electric power is the first step toward converting all three of the state's Jumbo Mark IIs to operate solely on battery power. When shore charging infrastructure is complete and all three of the Jumbo Mark IIs are converted, carbon emissions will fall by 48,565 tons every year — the equivalent of taking more than 10,000 cars off the road.
graphic showing VW federal funds are granting $35 million to retrofit a Washington State Ferry, Jumbo Mark II ferry from diesel to electric hybrid.
 
Oct 29, 2016
1,915
Hunter 41 DS Port Huron
More importantly, installing batteries and allowing the ferry to run on electric power is the first step toward converting all three of the state's Jumbo Mark IIs to operate solely on battery power. When shore charging infrastructure is complete and all three of the Jumbo Mark IIs are converted, carbon emissions will fall by 48,565 tons every year — the equivalent of taking more than 10,000 cars off the road.

So where does the power to charge the batteries come from? Coal or NG fired power plants and do they not emit CO2 and I would bet that this is not figured into the propaganda statement on CO2 reduction.
 
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Sep 22, 2018
1,869
Hunter 216 Kingston
So where does the power to charge the batteries come from? Coal or NG fired power plants and do they not emit CO2 and I would bet that this is not figured into the propaganda statement on CO2 reduction.
Perfectly valid question, any power generation comes at some environmental cost. Wind turbine blades made from composite material, solar panels also manufactured and transported etc. None of it is zero impact.

Going down that rabbit hole can get interesting. Why does the ferry have to run at all? I grew up on an Island and there were residents in my youth that rarely if ever left the Island that had productive, content lives.
 
Jul 30, 2019
216
Seaward 25 777 Fort St. James
I have two nephews who are climate monks. They wear dark hairy cassocks, carry heavy model wind turbines over their shoulders that they drag wearily along meanwhile screaming "The End is Nigh, Oh Worthless Sinners! Prepare for Doom as Just Retribution for your Wastrel Years!". I paraphrase of course. Just don't go anywhere near questioning the soundness of wind farms and solar energy, or you're likely to find yourself wearing a solar panel for a bib. BUT... ask them about the vast quantities of energy wasted in mining BitCoins..... and Oh No! there's nothing wrong with that at all... greatly exaggerated that is, and let's get back to the question of my internal combustion engines that I insist on running. (Psst... don't mention the four or five airplane-mediated holidays they take their families on every year either....)

I fear that this argument comes down to a kind of personal religion, which is seldom rational, on either side.

Bob