Weld, Replace, or Scream and Cry?

[ontherocks83]

Apparently I like to take 2 steps forward and 1 step back whenever I am allowed the opportunity . For the most part the refit is going splendid, until I decided to find a way to break the water flange that the thermostat sits in on in my Universal M25, I would rather not recount the stupidity that lead up to me breaking it, but for the sadists that must know, Yes it involved a piece of wood, Yes it involved a hammer,and Yes it involved very ittle foresight. Anywho.....

Here is a pic of the part I need and after I get home I will post a pic of it broken.

In order to replace the flange I have to remove the head to gain enough clearance from the coolant pump. With the age of the engine there is a lot of things that are breaking when trying to be removed or are seized in outright.

The way I see it my options are either remove the head, replace the flange, and hope nothing else breaks

or

Would it be advisable to have someone weld it back together for me. It broke off in one single piece and aligns back up perfectly.

Also Bonus question, If I do need to remove the head, can I reuse the head bolts?

Thanks All

 

[Jim26m]

A. Without a pic, and without knowing the material composition of the part, it's hard to advise on the repair/replace issue. Although, based on the amount of trouble it is to get to, I'd probably replace it unless it's made of unobtanium...

Also, I'm a little confused regarding your question about having someone weld it. Are you thinking it can be welded in place i.e. still on the block? Maybe a pic would clear this up.

B. Can you reuse head bolts? Yes. Should you? No. The condition of the engine you describe would lead me to replace the head bolts. You should get a tap and chase all of the head threads before reassembling the engine. Proper gasket clamping is imperative; and proper head bolts and torquing is what keeps the head gasket from blowing.

Built a few engines, but by no means the world's leading expert. I'm sure you'll get additional feedback as you flesh out the situation with additional pics and info.

Next time you're tempted to hit something too hard, or with too big of a hammer, take a break. Spray on some PB BLASTER or your concoction of choice; or try some heating (but not too much); and then walk away. I had a stub axle in my 20 ton press for several days before it let go. I'd heat it a bit, spray it, and give it a few taps every evening after work - then walk away. Of course, that was after I got older and more patient. I've had antique small engine flywheels take several days to separate from crankshafts. Try to match your level of patience to the availability and price of the part. Hard to find and/or expensive? Very patient. Cheap and available? Break it and move on.

Don't beat yourself up. Breaking stuff is part of it. As my daddy always said, "boy, if you've never broken anything, it's only because you've never done anything".

 

[Stu Jackson]

If it aligns perfectly, have you considered gluing it back together? I recommend DEVCON. W/o a photo of where it broke, hard to say if you have space to clamp it together.

 

[dLj]

Your title "Weld, replace or scream and cry" - if it were me I'd likely be doing all four. First I'd scream after I broke it. Then I'd trying welding it. Go through the whole hassle putting it back together only to find out it didn't work. That's when I'd cry and in the end I'd just have to replace it....

dj

 

[ontherocks83]

Sorry for the delay, here are the pictures.

The second two are of me holding the broken piece in place. I added red arrows showing where the crack is.

 

[RitSim]

see attached pic for Kubota part number. You should be able order this from your local Kubota tractor dealer. I don't think you need to remove the head, but i would remove the water pump pulley - 3 or 4 bolts

 

[HMT2]

Don't beat yourself up. Breaking stuff is part of it. As my daddy always said, "boy, if you've never broken anything, it's only because you've never done anything".

I like that! Guess I have been doing lots of things!

 

[SG]

WIth a casting, in that break and in that position, you need to replace the piece. I can't see a work-around that is feasible. Glue or goop won't work. You can't weld that material. You have vibration and heat -- and IF it breaks under use you're SOL.

If it's really a Kubota "branded as a Universal engine, then RitSim's post above should be an avenue to pursue, the price should be a lot better.

 

[ontherocks83]

see attached pic for Kubota part number. You should be able order this from your local Kubota tractor dealer. I don't think you need to remove the head, but i would remove the water pump pulley - 3 or 4 bolts

Thank you for the Info! Can you send me a link to where you get that info for cross referencing the parts? I haven't been able to find the kubota part number equivalents for my engine.

Also in this picture, the red arrow is the coolant pump housing which is part of the block and is not removable, the blue arrow is part of the broken flange. Although you can't see it in the picture the bolt that is directly below the blue arrow only has about an 1/8" of clearance before it hits the back of the coolant pump housing.

 

[ontherocks83]

WIth a casting, in that break and in that position, you need to replace the piece. I can't see a work-around that is feasible. Glue or goop won't work. You can't weld that material. You have vibration and heat -- and IF it breaks under use you're SOL.

If it's really a Kubota "branded as a Universal engine, then RitSim's post above should be an avenue to pursue, the price should be a lot better.

I already called kubota this morning and the part number RitSim posted is $68.71, The exact same part through Westerbeke/Universal is $281.00. Thank you RitSim. Hopefully the head bolts are much cheaper too. Through Westerbeke they're $18.00 a piece x 12 of them.

The only reason I am so hesitant to pull the head, is at this point I am terrified of breaking something else i.e. a head bolt .

 

[Whatfiero1]

I always take old part to local parts suppliers to compare before purchasing. But you might want to strip gold paint off old part before entering kubota dealer because of the non competitive rules

 

[ontherocks83]

Also if/when I pull the head is there any chance of it warping just from removing it? Can I or should i get it machined? I have done heads on several gas engines but am not sure of the "rules/consequences" of machining a diesel head and increasing the compression.

 

[RitSim]

You don't need to pull the head. Probably need to remove the water pump pulley. Those bolts may be an issue, but a new water pump is cheaper than a broken head bolt.

 

[RitSim]

There are head gasket spacers to counter the compression change problem

https://innomach.com/images/IMS-CATALOG.pdf

 

[ontherocks83]

So doing a little more research I found another option opposed to removing the head but I'm not sure if it is easier or harder.
The back of the coolant pump is part of the front engine cover. The red arrow is pointing to the coolant pump housing that is in my way of removing the water flange.

Instead of removing the head I could remove the front cover, but with all of the seals and gaskets I'm not sure if it would be any easier to do so. Along with more rusted bolts and points of failure.

 

[Jim26m]

Pictures tell the story. It's pretty toasty...

Tough call. I'd probably go with your gut and pull the front cover. Agree that breaking a head bolt is likely worse than a front cover bolt. At least it's out of the boat where you can access it.

If it were mine, I'd want to strip it clean and start from the ground up-possibly repower. Obviously, that's not what you want. I'll throw out an alternate plan. Have a machine shop make you a new flange to mount the thermostat, with a tube having an OD that is a tight fit into the existing bore that you have below the broken flange. Scuff up the bore and new tube, and apply JB Weld and put the new piece into the bore. Don't know if you have the few inches of vertical clearance in the boat to make this happen, but that's the only work-around I can think of without more beer.

I have used JB weld to hold heater hose necks in water pumps and thermostat housings with good success. Parts have to be clean and fit tight. You only need a 15-20psi joint, so a good bit of overlap between tube and bore would do it. Don't get me wrong, this isn't the right way to do it, but given your apparent desire not to go deep, it's an option.

If this is an offshore use, I'd strongly suggest a total rebuild or repower. That engine cannot be easily serviced if necessary.

If you are just in protected inland waters, the quick fix would get you going again without having to do an extensive disassembly, or risk breaking additional bolts.

Good luck, and keep posting. Interesting conundrum.

 

[ontherocks83]

Although I would love to do a repower and if I could get a new beta 20 for under 5k I'd be tempted but I believe they cost a bit more than that. The engine only has 664 hours on it, and is otherwise in great shape. I'm still looking into a welding option. I talked to a professional welder and I'll let you know how that turns out and what he thinks once he sees it. I'll keep y'all posted

 

[Jim26m]

If you wouldn't mind saying, what were you servicing when you broke the flange?

 

[ontherocks83]

Both the bolts that hold the Thermostat cover broke and I was trying to "persuade" the cover off and while one of the bolts freed up, the other held firm in the cover and took the bottom of the flange with it.

Really it was due to impatience and running out of oxygen for my Map gas O2 torch and not getting it hot enough before tapping it out.

 

[Jim26m]

Thanks.