Sailing and Philosophy

[sailnoproblem]

Hey Will, I THINK you have to much time on your hands.
Maybe you should get another hobby to go along with your other professions and talents!
MERRY CHRISTMAS

 

[Will Gilmore]

Just STYX to the subject. "I know the voices aren't real, but man do they come up with some great ideas."

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[sailnoproblem]

Touche

 

[Will Gilmore]

Merry Christmas, sailnoproblem.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Will Gilmore]

This is one of my favorite short stories https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjABegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw2BeObI9iiE-SfPaaMwZPT2
"Take Over Bos'n" by Oscar Schisgall. It represents an interesting take on the group mind and the dichotomy between its constituent parts and its directive consciousness.
The sailing couple becomes the vessel's crew and that should act as a single mind, but there are moments, sometimes in or out of context when that isn't true.
Compare the transformation of the bos'n with that of the queenless naked mole rat colony. It's fascinating how we can transform to meet a change in our circumstances.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Tedd]

That was terrific, Will. And very apropos, for me. Just last night I was having a discussion with some people about the expression, "It's lonely at the top." They thought it was about loneliness in the social sense--as in too busy to have friends. They didn't understand what the expression is really about.

Tedd (another Dragonfly)

 

[Will Gilmore]

It is often pointed out, by the wiser leaders, that, in a social context, the pyramid of authority isn't wide end down, but rather narrow end down. A good leader supports rather than be supported. It is a nice thought and sort of ruins the analogy of a building like structure for the
Pyramid, but the is truth in that view.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Will Gilmore]

In another thread, some of the reasons sailing can grab ahold of us was touched upon.
For me, there is inherent beauty in sailing and sailboats as well a the nautical life. Much of this beauty is pure aesthetics, the quiet, the wave motion, the curves of a well laid hull and well trimmed sails, but beyond that, there is a great sense of place with the natural world. By that, I mean, sailing provides an outlet for the need for independence. It uses and manipulates natural forces that we can understand. Sailing, like surfing or playing a musical instrument, lets us feel like masters of our world. We are rewarded for our perception and industry by being able say, "I am doing this." My world is directly affected, for the better, by my actions and not reliant upon the genius of someone else.
You can't operate a sailboat without knowing how a sailboat works. Of course there are degrees or levels to this knowledge, but it isn't pushing a button and someone else's engine starts mysteriously and you go. You may not know how your remote works on your TV, but you have to know, rudimentarilly, how your sailboat works to sail. That is what I find so satisfying about sailing.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[HukilauMike]

I never thought about the "musical instrument" analogy before; I like that. I think that's especially true for more traditional, acoustic instruments.

 

[Will Gilmore]

In a recent thread about some new design features appearing more and more on sailboats, some comments were made regarding what real sailors vs people who aren't "real" sailors are looking for in a sailboat. This, of course, also leads to ideas on what is a "real" sailboat, as opposed to a push button power boat with sail pretending to be a sailboat. The concept is that there are "posers" who want to live the "mystique" of the sailor, but want the comfort and automatic features of powerboats.
I thought of starting this as a thread of its own, but then I thought, this is really a philosophical question.
What is a "real" sailor in contrast to a bogus sailor? We have, on this forum, sailboat owners who sail everyday, who sail weekends, for a few vacations during the season, who make their living on boats, who drink cocktails in their cockpits, day sailors, ocean cruisers, who work on their boats and who race, as well as those of us who own a driveway sailor and just dream about the day they get to sail. Is there a criteria that can be universally, or near universally agreed upon, about what makes a legitimate, bona fide, real sailor?

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Hunter216]

Does the “sailing” the “sailor” does have to be on water? Does the water have to be liquid or can it be solid? Can the sailing be done under or on top of the water? If it can be done in places other than water like land or the air or outer space what are the boundaries of what is considered sailing? Can the power to move come from sources other than a “sail”

Perhaps the “sailor” doesn’t even have to move.

Perhaps the “sailor” doesn’t even have to be human!

So many questions to ponder before I can offer an opinion

Sorry can’t stop the edits - more questions streaming in......

 

[TomY]

I don't care much for the term, 'real sailor' but I know what you're getting at, Will.

I like to watch sailors under sail, and I think I can spot what I like to refer to as a natural sailor.

I see it in kids and old people, and not necessarily with a lot of sailing experience.

In fact I know some sailors that have tons of sailing experience and technical knowhow, that I wouldn't call natural sailors. They would be 'real sailors', for sure; many are far more experienced than I.

I don't think you're born a 'natural sailor', yet I suspect there is something to what you start with in life, no matter what it is you're doing.

I can't explain exactly what it is, or how someone becomes a natural sailor. Still, I think after years as a sailing voyeur, I know them when I see it.

Here's an anonymous(to me) natural sailor; do you see it?

Oh and real sailboats, that's another thread all together.

 

[Hunter216]

I don't care much for the term, 'real sailor' but I know what you're getting at, Will.

I like to watch sailors under sail, and I think I can spot what I like to refer to as a natural sailor.

I see it in kids and old people, and not necessarily with a lot of sailing experience.

In fact I know some sailors that have tons of sailing experience and technical knowhow, that I wouldn't call natural sailors. They would be 'real sailors', for sure; many are far more experienced than I.

I don't think you're born a 'natural sailor', yet I suspect there is something to what you start with in life, no matter what it is you're doing.

I can't explain exactly what it is, or how someone becomes a natural sailor. Still, I think after years as a sailing voyeur, I know them when I see it.

Here's an anonymous(to me) natural sailor; do you see it?

View attachment 171816

Oh and real sailboats, that's another thread all together.

I think I can see it. I know that I see it in nature all the time. A balance between strength and flexibility, calm control over what is under control and acceptance of what is outside of it.

I can see it in your photos and writing style!

 

[Will Gilmore]

I agree with hunter. What I see in that photo is what I felt sailing my pram around Clearwater Bay. It's that "shoulder drop" mentioned in another thread about "Blue Space". When you can see that they are just home. I like that. Whether there is years of hard won experience or brand new and filled with questions and mistakes. That sense of calm that goes with being home can come through, no matter what level of experience some people have. It's that feeling that what you are seeing is a whole. It's not a boat and a person, it's the boat, the sea, and wind, and sky, and person as one organism.
I'll accept that as a great starting point for this discussion. It may be as far as it can go, but I think there's more to trade in ideas around this question. How about commitment? Is experience a requirement? Intent? Goals? Do these things matter? How about credentials? Family history? Personal history? Is it possible to come from a life of powerboating and be a legitimate sailor by buying a sailboat? Can an "armchair" sailor, like myself, be a "real" sailor?

Is it possible to buy, own and use a sailboat and NOT be a "real" sailor?

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Will Gilmore]

Oh and real sailboats, that's another thread all together.

Yes.
Ithought of that also, but it has a place here too. I would like to read a few thoughts on that from others, as well. It's common enough to read someone's perspective about whether this boat or that boat is a "real" sailboat, but those thoughts usually remained limited to the passing comment and don't reveal much about the source of the idea.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Davidasailor26]

Great question Will. To me being a “real” sailor requires two traits - the ability to proficiently move a vessel using the wind, and desire to do so. Some sailors work hard to learn and perfect their skills, while some are born with the ability to do that somewhat intrinsically (Tom’s natural sailor, who makes it look easy by her relaxed nonchalance). Some want to make their boat move fast through a fleet, some want to move safely across oceans, and some just want to get out and go across the lake for a few hours. I count them all just as real as the others, if they can do it with some amount of proficiency and if they’re doing it (at least in part) for pleasure.

On the question of “real sailboats” - I’d day a real sailboat is any vessel that enables *some* “real sailor” to move their boat and enjoy it. The boat doesn’t need to work for *all* sailors, only some subset. Some real sailboats will enable the racers, some will enable the blue water crossers, and some will enable the casual weekender or day sailor. All just as “real” as the others, if there’s a real sailor who enjoys using them.

 

[Hunter216]

Does the “sailing” the “sailor” does have to be on water? No

Does the water have to be liquid or can it be solid? Yes it can be solid.

Can the sailing be done under or on top of the water? Yes

If it can be done in places other than water like land or the air or outer space what are the boundaries of what is considered sailing? No boundaries.

Can the power to move come from sources other than a “sail” Yes

Perhaps the “sailor” doesn’t even have to move.

Perhaps the “sailor” doesn’t even have to be human!

My opinion. All of the photos depict real sailors.

 

[TomY]

Yes.
Ithought of that also, but it has a place here too. I would like to read a few thoughts on that from others, as well. It's common enough to read someone's perspective about whether this boat or that boat is a "real" sailboat, but those thoughts usually remained limited to the passing comment and don't reveal much about the source of the idea.

-Will (Dragonfly)

Ok, here's a real sailboat I admired this past season, an 82' Swan. I know, the size is ridiculous (charter for 25k a week). Here's why I call it a real sailboat.

First, it's much, much longer than the other two sailboats in the photo. Yet it looks smaller, sleeker. Why? Small low house in comparison to the higher dwelling structures on each side.

She's low on freeboard and wide on decks compared to the smaller, higher, chunkier boats flanking her.

AQUILA is a 2002 design and may be newer than these smaller boats and still she has these ancient design elements. Those aforementioned design elements never go out of style.

Towering 4 spreader rig, she has less windage than either of the other boats, right from the decks upward.

Finally, see she is dousing her sails? She sailed into the harbor, all 82 feet of her. Weatherly.

The next day after casting off the mooring she left - again, under sail. Headed downwind, the captain and crew simply unfurled the headsail. All as easy as pushing a button.

The best improvement in sailboat design for me is sail handling tech. I predict furling booms will be the norm on all newer boats soon and in surprisingly smaller lengths.

AQUILA probably has about the same room below as the 40 something footer to the right (above). Your choice, poor housing or real sailboat.

AQUILA sailed in and out with the ease of an 82' daysailer. This is a real sailboat for my taste. What's yours?

 

[Hunter216]

This, of course, also leads to ideas on what is a "real" sailboat,

I absolutely agree with @TomY that the AQUILA is a “real sailboat” in every sense of the term.

In a less classical sense I also consider both of these real sailboats. Although I somewhat question the sanity of the sailors!

 

[Will Gilmore]

Video Game sailing, anyone?
This game looks interesting

It's a puzzle game. One review says it has introspection at its core.

Here's another sailing simulator that looks like a beginner might be able to learn sailing theory from.

These sailing experiences don't offer the hands-on, DIY experiences that include repair and upgrade and building it yourself. I feel a fundamental element of the life of a sailor is this independent self-reliance that moving yourself around by the wind gives you. It's more a frame-of-mind than a history of experience, to me.
So, while one can be a "real" sailor under varying circumstances aboard real or virtual boats, there's some qualities that are independent of all of that.

Communicating those nebulous internal qualities to others or reading those qualities in others may be necessarily difficult. Is it important to make it difficult to prove oneself or to accept the genuine person in others? In an online environment, trust can be easy to give away, because the consequences of extending that trust seem so trivial, yet there are other aspects to online living that make it seem more important than ever to be cautious. What's the price of treating a person who claims to be a "real" sailor, at their word? To give them that respect without proof?
I believe respect is something that one should start with, that unrespectability has to be "earned". Trust, on the other hand, takes time.

-Will (Dragonfly)