Looking at 1984 ODay in prime condition, lots of TLC, almost like out of factory. Freshwater lightly sailed, shoal keel. My intention is for longer passages on Great Lakes and possibly Keys and Caribbean; no ocean crossing. Is the ODay 34 considered 'blue water' hardy ?
O Day 34 for Bluewater
- Thread starter DockH
- Start date
My next door neighbor has an ODay 34 he has owned since new. He has sailed in Lake Erie, Lake Michigan, and Lake Huron and has spent more time in the North Channel than you could imagine. Even as old as that boat is, I would be comfortable using it on the great lakes. Personally, I have my doubts about using it for so called blue water sailing even though that boat is probably better built than mine.
O'Days were built as coastal cruisers. As such, they should be fine for the Great Lakes and a trip to the Keys or Bahamas. Basically, any place you can get a reliable weather window for several days.
For longer off shore passages where weather is less predictable, there are better suited boats. Boats from Tartan, C&C, Sabre, some Pearsons, Freedom, might be better suited for longer passages. Boats from these manufacturers are built more robustly than the O'Day and should be able to better withstand the rigors of an ocean passage.
One construction detail to examine is the rigging. Boats suitable for off shore work will have larger diameter shrouds than comparably sized boats built for near shore and coastal sailing. Also compare the capsize ratio, values less than 2 are good and indicate how likely the boat is to keep the keel pointing down and the mast up. Displacement will give you an idea of how robustly the boat is built. For offshore work, heavier is generally better provided the hull forms are similar.
Use Sailboatdata.com to research some of these characteristics.
In each issue of Good Old Boat magazine a boat is reviewed and then there is commentary by Rob Mazza, a naval architect, comparing the reviewed boat to similar boats. Helpful information.
With this said, there are people who sail all kinds of boats all over the place. Matt Rutherford took an old 27 foot Albin Vega and circumnavigated the North and South Hemisphere's nonstop, including the NW passage. I do not think that passage could be considered comfortable.
For longer off shore passages where weather is less predictable, there are better suited boats. Boats from Tartan, C&C, Sabre, some Pearsons, Freedom, might be better suited for longer passages. Boats from these manufacturers are built more robustly than the O'Day and should be able to better withstand the rigors of an ocean passage.
One construction detail to examine is the rigging. Boats suitable for off shore work will have larger diameter shrouds than comparably sized boats built for near shore and coastal sailing. Also compare the capsize ratio, values less than 2 are good and indicate how likely the boat is to keep the keel pointing down and the mast up. Displacement will give you an idea of how robustly the boat is built. For offshore work, heavier is generally better provided the hull forms are similar.
Use Sailboatdata.com to research some of these characteristics.
In each issue of Good Old Boat magazine a boat is reviewed and then there is commentary by Rob Mazza, a naval architect, comparing the reviewed boat to similar boats. Helpful information.
With this said, there are people who sail all kinds of boats all over the place. Matt Rutherford took an old 27 foot Albin Vega and circumnavigated the North and South Hemisphere's nonstop, including the NW passage. I do not think that passage could be considered comfortable.
There are two certainties when people start asking if a boat is capable enough for any particular passage. One there will be at least post that will say no and regurgitate "old salt" stuff about full keels, skeg rudders, comfort motion ratio or any other derived ratio, keel stepped masts, etc. And two, there are people out there doing the exact opposite of what the "old salt" says.
Here are my thoughts:
From my personal experience, we have sailed a 31 foot Catalina from Boston to the Caribbean. Currently in Bequia in Saint Vincent and the Grenadines. If an O'Day 34 was in good condition I would have no problem doing this type of cruising in that boat.
Good luck and fair winds,
Jesse
Here are my thoughts:
- There is no such thing as a blue water boat, just blue water crews. Any idiot can sink a boat by sailing in the wrong location in the wrong conditions. Experienced crews have taken bolt on keels, spade rudder, modern hulls around the world safely.
- Condition is the most important thing in a boat. Give me a well cared for Hunter, Benny, O'Day, etc. over the unmaintained Whitby, IP, Sabre, Tartan, etc.
- Experience is key and you get it from being on the water. Get a boat and get out in good conditions. Push this limits as you get more and more comfortable. And/or crew with captain with knowledge.
- I'm not a big proponent of lots of classes. But take something like the Americans Boating Course from US Power Squadron to learn the basics.
- Do your own research. When someone tells you a certain boat is not good for this or that, don't take their word for it. Go research. Are other people doing it? What is there experience? Can you get insurance on that boat for that use (this is a big overlooked one, I have friends that have advanced degrees in physics and data analysis that work for insurance companies crunching accident and incident data full-time, if spade rudders were a real risk for offshore would an insurance company insure you at a reasonable rate)? Don't take uncited blogs and forum posts as fact, look for supporting facts.
- Develop a think skin or duck mentality. If you do something that goes against internet wisdom or conventional thoughts you will never stop hearing about it. People will always challenge your boat choice, assume you are rich if you go cruising before retirement, or say you are being foolish for what ever disagrees with their opinions. Let that stuff roll off your back like water on a duck.
From my personal experience, we have sailed a 31 foot Catalina from Boston to the Caribbean. Currently in Bequia in Saint Vincent and the Grenadines. If an O'Day 34 was in good condition I would have no problem doing this type of cruising in that boat.
Good luck and fair winds,
Jesse
And many of those people are just spitting up stuff they read but have never actually crossed an ocean themselves.
Myself included
Even having crossed an ocean doesn't necessarily mean we know much. My own crossing was wasn't much more than a calm 14 days on lake Okeechobee. It was the first 4 day beat to Burmuda and the last seven out of the Azores that gave some idea of what it could be like. Been in much worse on single night sails in the Gulf of Mexico.
And many of those people are just spitting up stuff they read but have never actually crossed an ocean themselves.
Myself included
It's the overall time and conditions of a career in sailing that will provide the best insight. That means, you have to have a career in sailing. And still!
We read in order to research. Few will have the same experience, but other people's will tell us what it COULD be like.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that you will have the same experience as some old salt who tells you "it will be like this..."
-Will (Dragonfly)
Not when it was new and certainly not at present without extensive upgrades. Shallow keel draft will make it a little tender in strong winds, the portholes are not strong enough, the cockpit is too large, there is not enough storage for water and provisions and the 35 year old rigging probably should be upgraded. Having said that plenty of people have crossed oceans in similar boats, there are always people willing to take additional risks, deal with uncomfortable travel, ration water and food or sail shorthanded. There is nothing like the comfortable seagoing motion of a heavy blue water cruiser. The question was, whether the boat could be considered a "blue water" boat and the answer is no, whether I have crossed and ocean or not is irrelevant. I have been offshore in a blue water boat and what a difference from my coastal cruiser.
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The OP did ask if the '84 O'day 34 was considered "bluewater hardy" after explaining the type of sailing he was interested in "...no ocean crossing."
For island hopping and a couple of nights off shore? Condition of boat is a big factor. You don't want your old stays to part when you're 60 miles from shore.
-Will (Dragonfly)
For island hopping and a couple of nights off shore? Condition of boat is a big factor. You don't want your old stays to part when you're 60 miles from shore.
-Will (Dragonfly)
An O'Day 34 won the Marion, Ma. to Bermuda race back in the 80's. The color of the water doesn't make much difference, it is the condition of the ocean and atmosphere that will determine your well being. We have seen several blue water boats sink in adverse conditions for example that cargo ship that sank off the Bahamas a few years ago in a hurricane. Off Cape Hatteras it is littered with sunken blue water boats that were in fairly shallow coastal water in very bad conditions. Situational awareness is what counts and condition of the vessel. The Bounty sank and was considered in poor condition from reports I've read along with terrible situational awareness.
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 23,174
If they do it will be the skill of the skipper and crew that enables them to survive.
This points us back to the primary issue. Is the Skipper and crew up for the journey? Have they outfitted their boat to meet and survive the conditions they might meet? Do they know how to choose a good time for the trip?
I’m certain there are dozens of comments on this topic on the SBO website. As said or intimated above, they basically fall into the same categories. 1) It’s mostly about the captain and crew, not the boat. 2) Many have done it in a similar boat, so can you. 3) The boat should be in well-maintained condition even if not designed to stay offshore for extended period, etc. 4) Finally, if you wish to sail “blue waters” for extended period, then you should get a boat designed for that, etc.
There really is no such thing as an average weather condition on a given day or week. If you hit the bad weather, how will the boat and crew fare in, say, gale-force winds and conditions that persist for a few to perhaps several days? Not uncommon conditions. Things can break, such as steering cables and rudder posts, among other stuff. A wheeled boat with worm-drive steering is fail-safe compared to one with quadrant steering. A cutter rig offers more sail combinations in dealing with high winds than a straight sloop, etc. A solidly built heavy yacht wit low freeboard is more comfortable at sea than a light one that gets bounced around a lot, etc.
Skipper’s choice, I guess. Sure, you don’t need a skeg-hung rudder if you never hit anything that might break or bend the post; you don’t need a life raft if the boat doesn’t sink; you don’t need high-capacity bilge pumps if the boat is never holed; you don’t need a boat built well enough to withstand sustained torque (twisting forces) if you’re never in powerful, confused seas for long; you don’t need a boat with a high righting-moment if you never are rolled or knocked down severely by a rogue wave, etc. All you need is luck!!
There really is no such thing as an average weather condition on a given day or week. If you hit the bad weather, how will the boat and crew fare in, say, gale-force winds and conditions that persist for a few to perhaps several days? Not uncommon conditions. Things can break, such as steering cables and rudder posts, among other stuff. A wheeled boat with worm-drive steering is fail-safe compared to one with quadrant steering. A cutter rig offers more sail combinations in dealing with high winds than a straight sloop, etc. A solidly built heavy yacht wit low freeboard is more comfortable at sea than a light one that gets bounced around a lot, etc.
Skipper’s choice, I guess. Sure, you don’t need a skeg-hung rudder if you never hit anything that might break or bend the post; you don’t need a life raft if the boat doesn’t sink; you don’t need high-capacity bilge pumps if the boat is never holed; you don’t need a boat built well enough to withstand sustained torque (twisting forces) if you’re never in powerful, confused seas for long; you don’t need a boat with a high righting-moment if you never are rolled or knocked down severely by a rogue wave, etc. All you need is luck!!
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Who says the O"Day 34 isn't? You?
The manufacturer and designer would certainly disagree with you. From the brochure, in big bold letters:
"A luxuriously comfortable and practical offshore cruiser"
All of the other things you have mentioned are design choices and I could put up an argument against each one you favor. Designs evolve. Boats get better, faster, stronger and lighter. Just because you prefer old tech doesn't mean the new tech is not ocean worthy. Every boat is a series of compromises.
Little tip I found. I carry several dynema off-road tow ropes. I found several on eBay with good splices in each end and of the appropriate lengths for emergency stays and shrouds. Most are even dux (sp?). The only problem is they had mild steel thimbles. Replace the thimbles and got some other hardware I salvaged from some Irma wrecks and I have cheap and lightweight backup rigging.
It's a 1984 model in this case. Does this represent "new tech"? "Off shore" begins at a distance of about a 12 to 24 hour's run from safe harbor, in my view. If it was meant to be sold and used as a "blue water passage maker", etc., then I think they would have said so.
We humans have a grand proclivity to categorize most anything. And sailors are not exempt from this categorizing disorder. We do categorize in order to facilitate communication, however, it often impedes discussion. Witness this thread. Loosely placed in the ever popular "Is this a Bluewater Boat?" category.
For the most part we can agree on the definition of a boat, even the Supreme Court has ruled on this. The problem is "blue water." Each of us seems to have a different working definition of "Bluewater boat." When I think of a Bluewater boat, I think of a boat that can safely and comfortably sail for multiple weeks hundreds to thousands of miles off shore, such as a run from Panama to the Marquesas. Others may think of a 5 day passage from Newport to Bermuda as being a Bluewater cruise. And so our reponses to the original question, "Is this a Bluewater Boat?" are often at odds with each other.
Let me humbly suggest a different approach.
Begin with an honest appraisal of one's goals, dreams, skills, resources, and tolerance for discomfort. Don't rely the idyllic scenes in so many YouTube sailor videos. The honest ones share the good and the bad experiences.
From this, do the research on what is needed for the sailing you want to do and the conditions that you might end up sailing in. Preparation for a circumnavigation of Newfoundland is much different than preparing for a circumnavigation of Grenada.
Look at the longest passages you intend to make, what is necessary for those passages? A 4 day passage to Bermuda is much different than a 4 week passage to Tahiti.
Finally make a list of essential characteristics. As the list of potential boats becomes smaller, there will be more compromises and trade-offs. Go back to step one and reconsider the options.
Ask questions, and when someone says, this boat fits or doesn't fit the category, ask why and ask what is their definition of "Bluewater boat."
To re-answer the OP's question, with my conception of a Bluewater boat, the O'day 34 is not a Bluewater boat. It is not a boat that is designed to spend weeks far offshore and be subject to the kinds of conditions that develop in the open ocean. Outfitting an O'Day to meet those kinds of conditions would introduce a number of complications.
Is the O'Day 34 capable of a 5 day sail to Bermuda in decent weather, probably if the boat's rigging and systems are in good condition. Would it be comfortable and safe for making a 2 week passage from Halifax to Road Town? I think not. Is the boat capable of taking the Island Hopping from the Bahamas, to the DR, to Puerto Rico and then the BVI, yes it could Those are all relatively short passages of a couple of days.
For the most part we can agree on the definition of a boat, even the Supreme Court has ruled on this. The problem is "blue water." Each of us seems to have a different working definition of "Bluewater boat." When I think of a Bluewater boat, I think of a boat that can safely and comfortably sail for multiple weeks hundreds to thousands of miles off shore, such as a run from Panama to the Marquesas. Others may think of a 5 day passage from Newport to Bermuda as being a Bluewater cruise. And so our reponses to the original question, "Is this a Bluewater Boat?" are often at odds with each other.
Let me humbly suggest a different approach.
Begin with an honest appraisal of one's goals, dreams, skills, resources, and tolerance for discomfort. Don't rely the idyllic scenes in so many YouTube sailor videos. The honest ones share the good and the bad experiences.
From this, do the research on what is needed for the sailing you want to do and the conditions that you might end up sailing in. Preparation for a circumnavigation of Newfoundland is much different than preparing for a circumnavigation of Grenada.
Look at the longest passages you intend to make, what is necessary for those passages? A 4 day passage to Bermuda is much different than a 4 week passage to Tahiti.
Finally make a list of essential characteristics. As the list of potential boats becomes smaller, there will be more compromises and trade-offs. Go back to step one and reconsider the options.
Ask questions, and when someone says, this boat fits or doesn't fit the category, ask why and ask what is their definition of "Bluewater boat."
To re-answer the OP's question, with my conception of a Bluewater boat, the O'day 34 is not a Bluewater boat. It is not a boat that is designed to spend weeks far offshore and be subject to the kinds of conditions that develop in the open ocean. Outfitting an O'Day to meet those kinds of conditions would introduce a number of complications.
Is the O'Day 34 capable of a 5 day sail to Bermuda in decent weather, probably if the boat's rigging and systems are in good condition. Would it be comfortable and safe for making a 2 week passage from Halifax to Road Town? I think not. Is the boat capable of taking the Island Hopping from the Bahamas, to the DR, to Puerto Rico and then the BVI, yes it could Those are all relatively short passages of a couple of days.
Marketing hype. What is O'Day's definition of offshore? In my thinking, Offshore is more than a day's sail to a safe harbor, or somewhere greater than about 150 miles off shore.
The ocean is more powerful than any boat that you can put on her. That is a simple truth. Because of that power, it instills fear. As it should. Many of us spend a lot of time looking and asking to try and minimize the inherent dangers, both real and perceived.
Those that go out and sail become aware of the limitations of our boat and ourselves. If one does this enough, an internal list develops, a list that includes knowledge of boats, of equipment, of sailing techniques, of personal needs and limitations. One gets to know what one needs both in terms of boat and individual requirements. As Richard Bode said, first you have to row a little boat.
Many of us are also driven to extend the limits of our knowledge and experiences. One of the beautiful aspects of sailing I personally enjoy is that I am always learning new things. I am always extending my limitations. I imagine when that enjoyment ends, I will be ready to stop sailing. Or perhaps reduce my sailing.
I've also come to understand that if I don't feel comfortable about a specific aspect of a boat or sailing, then I look for someone that I feel can answer my questions. Or at least give me good advice in that subject.
No one on a forum can answer if the specific boat you are looking at is blue water capable. The model may be a good foundation, or not. But each boat is comprised of many small individual parts or systems. If you need to know if the rigging is in good enough condition, or the structure is in good enough shape, as examples, you need to evaluate the specific systems you need to know about. If you cannot do that yourself, find a professional that can.
Then enters in the whole aspect of what makes you comfortable/happy on a boat for what you want to do. No one can answer that but yourself.
Just some random thoughts that occur to me as I sit and watch a beautiful body of water on a fall day in the North country...
dj
Those that go out and sail become aware of the limitations of our boat and ourselves. If one does this enough, an internal list develops, a list that includes knowledge of boats, of equipment, of sailing techniques, of personal needs and limitations. One gets to know what one needs both in terms of boat and individual requirements. As Richard Bode said, first you have to row a little boat.
Many of us are also driven to extend the limits of our knowledge and experiences. One of the beautiful aspects of sailing I personally enjoy is that I am always learning new things. I am always extending my limitations. I imagine when that enjoyment ends, I will be ready to stop sailing. Or perhaps reduce my sailing.
I've also come to understand that if I don't feel comfortable about a specific aspect of a boat or sailing, then I look for someone that I feel can answer my questions. Or at least give me good advice in that subject.
No one on a forum can answer if the specific boat you are looking at is blue water capable. The model may be a good foundation, or not. But each boat is comprised of many small individual parts or systems. If you need to know if the rigging is in good enough condition, or the structure is in good enough shape, as examples, you need to evaluate the specific systems you need to know about. If you cannot do that yourself, find a professional that can.
Then enters in the whole aspect of what makes you comfortable/happy on a boat for what you want to do. No one can answer that but yourself.
Just some random thoughts that occur to me as I sit and watch a beautiful body of water on a fall day in the North country...
dj