Collision today

[DougM]

I am not defending the power boater regarding use of radar.
My question is should the skipper of either boat equipped with radar be spending his time with his head in the boat looking at the radar screen, or should he be looking at what is going on around him?

On a sailboat with the display on the pedestal, the display is nearly impossible to read on a sunny day. If its at the nav station below, Then what?
Same for the VHF, it can be on 16 at the nav station below and cannot be heard. I don’t have a remote mic so I end up keeping a hand held at the helm. I’m guessing that a large percentage of the boats around me are either not monitoring 16 or don’t even have their radios on.

The charter captains for the most part are not the problem. Its the rookie in the undersized, overpowered boat, with no knowledge of the rules at all that concerns me.

 

[SG]

Technically, I think that does put you in violation of 7b, but I think that in your given example it would be analogous to being in violation of a seat belt law while sitting in a parked car in a parking lot at a grocery store. I don't know of anyone ever being written up for either violation.

7(b) as posted in an earlier reply to this topic -
Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational,
including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and
radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.

The issue is probably only after a collision or some catastrophe. Its then, as your actions and inactions become subject to dissection, what you could-of, should-of, become subject to review. As we all know: "It isn't that bad, may be an explanation, but that bad is still bad."

I'm not sure you become instantly liable for such a transgression, but it moves you into a zone which exposes you. Under tort law (I'm not a lawyer), partial culpability is not a good place to be.

 

[JimInPB]

... To some extent both parties have some blame.. If think the ColRegs state that it is the responsibility of the skipper to avoid the accident even if he/she has the right of way.

This is consistent with the limited amount of case law that I have read. Usually, in the case of a collision at sea, both captains are found to be at least partially responsible. The rule about keeping a lookout is usually cited for the captain of the boat that is least at fault.

In the case of a sailboat under full sail getting t-boned by a brand new motor boat that didn't have his radio or radar on, and apparently didn't see the big white sails in front of him, this may end up being an exception to the general practice of blaming both captains. As other's have alluded to, I am not sure how much the captain of a sailboat in moderate air can do to avoid being hit by a motor boat that is doing 30 knots.

I have had more than one instance when I was in a sailboat in scant air when I saw some big sporty or super yacht barreling down on me, a mile or two off shore. Knowing that the other guy was probably in transit & may be on autopilot, made me feel like a sitting duck.

 

[JimInPB]

...
Same for the VHF, it can be on 16 at the nav station below and cannot be heard. I don’t have a remote mic so I end up keeping a hand held at the helm. I’m guessing that a large percentage of the boats around me are either not monitoring 16 or don’t even have their radios on....

Yea, the requirement to monitor 16 while underway is not really enforced anywhere I have been, but the rule is on the books. If you can't hear your radio from the helm, then I think that would be interpreted as having faulty equipment. External speakers are available for most VHFs, which reminds me, I bought an external speaker about 2 years ago & still have not gotten around to installing it. I should get on that.

I think that your practice of keeping the hand held handy, is a good way to go.

 

[JamesG161]

I have read this entire thread as it progressed.
To put it bluntly...

That power boat would have Never hit my boat.

Exception would have been, if it was an intentional collision.
Jim...

PS: Many times power boats seem to come too close. Most are taking pictures of our beauty, under sail.

PSS: Safety of crew and boat comes first.

 

[jviss]

and operational

This phrase shows up regarding radar and VHF. The federal law, the USCG regulations, and the interpretations and explanations of these are, in my opinion, sometimes vague, confusing, and often lack clarity.

For example, does "operational" mean in good repair and adjustment, or does it mean that the equipment is powered on? I think the latter. This is supported by the further explanation by the USCG that I quoted earlier, "At issue is whether the use of radar is appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and that is a determination made by the Master; and, ultimately decided by a trier of fact."

"and that is a determination made by the Master." Pretty clear.

Why doesn't the CG say "the equipment must be turned on" if that's what they mean?

I think these are debatable.

 

[dlochner]

ultimately decided by a trier of fact.

What this really says is that it doesn't matter until it matters and the judge (trier of fact) and jury will decide in hindsight if the master used good judgement.

For example, does "operational" mean in good repair and adjustment, or does it mean that the equipment is powered on? I think the latter.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, operational is defined as: of machinery, devices, or processes) ready to work correctly. See whole entry here: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/operational

There is no doubt that there will a "trier of fact" who will determine who is at fault. There is just too much that we don't know.

 

[DayDreamer41]

There is just too much that we don't know.

And yet there is 6 pages of discussion on a accident without facts.......

 

[dlochner]

And yet there is 6 pages of discussion on a accident without facts.......

Never let facts and science get in the way of a good discussion.

 

[Mike Culik]

Keep in mind that the power vessel was a commercial charter.....

 

[jssailem]

I think these are debatable

That is what is going on here. A debate on the use of terms found in a regulation that we as “Masters” of our boat must understand and then be held accountable.

does "operational" mean in good repair and adjustment, or does it mean that the equipment is powered on? I think the latter.

I think you are wrong. (Opinion) It is not “on” that identifies “operational”. It is

1. Unit turned on and all elements functioning in accord with manufacturers design standards.
2. Tuned to correct setting for the conditions
3. Operated by a person experienced in the use and interpretation of the equipment.

In a court case if you stated “the unit was on” a semi skilled lawyer would tear your statement to shreds.

 

[jviss]

In a court case if you stated “the unit was on” a semi skilled lawyer would tear your statement to shreds.

I'm not quite following this, John. I wouldn't be making the argument that it was on, I would be saying there's no requirement that it be powered on!

According to what you have said, my radar would never be operational, since I have not been trained in radar use.

 

[jssailem]

my radar would never be operational, since I have not been trained in radar use.

Not necessarily you are parsing my statement.
I did not say “trained” I said “experienced”.
If you as the Master can identify the individual operating the equipment is experienced (either by training or demonstratable experience) and capable of interpeting the information the equipment is producing then you would be in the right in my example.
With out this element a radar on is the same as saying your microwave or toaster is on and about as useful.

 

[Davidasailor26]

And yet there is 6 pages of discussion on a accident without facts.......

Are you new here (by here I mean the internet)?

I'm sure we'll have much more discussion and learn more great things if the investigation results are made public. In the mean time I enjoy learning some good lessons from the tangential discussions.

 

[DayDreamer41]

Are you new here (by here I mean the internet)?

New here I don't think so, but now that I have stated that I am familiar with the internet what rulings will apply to me in the future..........

 

[Head Sail]

Rules 6,7 & 8 deal with radar. If Boat has radar it must be on.

Maybe it was on but they didn't see a requirement to actually look at it.

 

[Bill Roosa]

On or off, if you had it available and it could have been used to avoid the accident you are liable for not availing yourself of all AVAILABLE safety equipment. That is regardless of wither you are required to have it or not. In the former you would also me liable for not having the required safety equipment and using it. You are the master and if you could have done something but did not for whatever reason you are wrong. As master you have to have the required safety equipment, train your crew to use it (pre safety brief to the land lubbers????) and then avoid the accident using what ever means are available. With that said the reasonable man rule is also in effect and on a clear day, in daylight with well trained crew if radar would not have helped identify you were on a collision course and you did identify that collision was a possibility and took the appropriated action to avoid a collision (you probably would not have had on BTW) but still had one you would probably not be found negligent for not having the radar on as it would not have changed the situation. Your "action to avoid a collision" would still be up for debate however.

 

[BrianRobin]

We had 2 fishing boats collide this past spring, two guys on board weren't as lucky ,both died. The captain of the boat that t-boned the other had his boat on auto pilot to tend his lobster traps, never once thinking to look where he was headed.
http://www.peicanada.com/eastern_graphic/article_912fd362-7ee6-11e8-9baa-fb862c8e6743.html

 

[Bill Roosa]

Curious here, how many of you do not monitor Channel 16 while underway?
Since my VHF has weather alert I want to know that as soon as possible and if I need to make a call (to some idiot like the power boat) I don't want to be fiddling with the knobs so I leave it on 16 or scan the club channels and 16. I do not leave it on while at anchor or at the slip except to check the weather.
also, another poster asked the question; how soon did you determine that a collision might be possible". CBCD constant bearing closing distance is the rule and you can do that for anything in visual/radar range. I know I use this for any approaching boat or more generally to determine if it is approaching. BTW if the bearing is moving toward the bow the boat will pass in front of you and if it is moving toward the stern it will pass behind you

 

[Rick486]

I have read this entire thread as it progressed.
To put it bluntly...

That power boat would have Never hit my boat.

Exception would have been, if it was an intentional collision.
Jim...

PS: Many times power boats seem to come too close. Most are taking pictures of our beauty, under sail.

PSS: Safety of crew and boat comes first.

On your PS, that also has been my observation after about 45 years of sailing in relatively busy waters of southern New England. Many times power boats do pass too closely to slower moving sailing vessels. On our boat we watch bearing rate on any seemingly converging tracks, radar and visual both. If there is no discernible bearing rate with the oncoming vessel within 1-2 miles I maneuver to create a bearing rate regardless of who is stand on. In limited visibility I hail on 16 and announce my intention. In "VFR" conditions I maneuver. My radar/plotter does TMA calculations and provides closest approach guidance. Over the years I have formed the opinion that high speed power boat captains have a steering wheel in their hands and think of close crossings similar to driving on roads in their cars, not realizing that they do not have the same measure of directional control and there are no stripes on the water. Since they routinely pass within 20 ft let's say of an oncoming car, they are comfortable with similar crossings on the water. Very dangerous. I have found this to be true even with large motor yachts. I have found however that with professionally crewed and captained motor yachts, a call on 16 (with the world, including CG, listening in) is rewarded by a prompt response and a discussion of who goes which way. Smaller power boats rarely answer. So my advice to all sailors is to maintain SA and maneuver earlier, rather than later, to avoid close crossings with power boats. AND NEVER RELY ON THE RULES OF THE ROAD TO BE FOLLOWED BY THE APPROACHING POWER BOAT. In the subject collision the J Boat crew may have relied on the arcane "power yields to sail" and the power boat may have instead relied on being the stand on in a two boat crossing. Or maybe they just weren't watching.......