Ah, yes, you are correct. Thanks. But where does any rule say the radar must be on?
Collision today
- Thread starter DAVA390
- Start date
Those rules seem to be based on the more fundamental Rule 5, which states:
Rule 5 - Lookout 
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.
In the SUCG FAQ, this statement is made: "At issue is whether the use of radar is appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and that is a determination made by the Master; and, ultimately decided by a trier of fact."Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.
"Operational" means not only in good working order, but turned on, no? In unlimited, daytime visibility conditions, no need to turn on the radar, as far as I can determine.
If I'm sailing in clear conditions and the radar is not on, am I violating any rule? I don't think so.
JViss, I know you (and a lot of us don't like or agree it is necessary or material), but the Official USCGinterprtation and explanation regarding this matter is as posted above:
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesFAQ#0.3_11
Would you please reconcile what that says?
Read the rest of the instruction:
"Should you be in a collision how would a judge/jury rule on your contention that the use of radar was impracticable (due to electrical drain, crew shortages, etc.)? Also, if a collision does occur, then there was obviously a risk of collision beforehand. Could the determination of that risk have been made sooner with the use of radar? It is difficult to answer such questions because the circumstances of each case are different."
I often don't run with my radar on unless it's night or limited visibility. When in doubt, I turn it on. (Probably like JViss, Gunni, and others here that have it.). Offshore, on a clear, moonlight night, when I'm sailing offshore, l might not have it on. (With all the chart plotters, AIS, etc. flipping it on isn't that big a difference. But of for some reasons you want to save power, it makes a difference.)
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesFAQ#0.3_11
Would you please reconcile what that says?
Read the rest of the instruction:
"Should you be in a collision how would a judge/jury rule on your contention that the use of radar was impracticable (due to electrical drain, crew shortages, etc.)? Also, if a collision does occur, then there was obviously a risk of collision beforehand. Could the determination of that risk have been made sooner with the use of radar? It is difficult to answer such questions because the circumstances of each case are different."
I often don't run with my radar on unless it's night or limited visibility. When in doubt, I turn it on. (Probably like JViss, Gunni, and others here that have it.). Offshore, on a clear, moonlight night, when I'm sailing offshore, l might not have it on. (With all the chart plotters, AIS, etc. flipping it on isn't that big a difference. But of for some reasons you want to save power, it makes a difference.)
I've read that, and my opinion is unchanged. As I quoted from that very passage earlier, "At issue is whether the use of radar is appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and that is a determination made by the Master; and, ultimately decided by a trier of fact." Up to the master. If a collision occurs, it is up to the "trier of fact" to determine if he used all means appropriate to the conditions.
That said, my new broadband radar uses very little power, and I have it on more than I did my previous 2kW conventional radar. And, this one is overlaid on the chart plotter, along with AIS targets from my class B transponder.
Note that none of CG guidance says anything about AIS!
That said, my new broadband radar uses very little power, and I have it on more than I did my previous 2kW conventional radar. And, this one is overlaid on the chart plotter, along with AIS targets from my class B transponder.
Note that none of CG guidance says anything about AIS!
What was the sailboat to do, when he saw a stink pot heading full BS at him?
Turn away per collreg?
We'd be looking at dead sailors if that fishing boat hit the stern of the J boat!
Turn head on? try defending that one in court
Everyone is lucky to be sucking air still, the fishing boat will be held liable, both owners will lose shit tons of money in the process, sad all round.
Turn away per collreg?
We'd be looking at dead sailors if that fishing boat hit the stern of the J boat!
Turn head on? try defending that one in court
Everyone is lucky to be sucking air still, the fishing boat will be held liable, both owners will lose shit tons of money in the process, sad all round.
AIS?
—INTERNATIONAL— Steering and Sailing Rules RULE 7 Risk of Collision (a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist. (b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects. (c) Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty info
I think that "all available means" includes having your Class C AIS on, if you have one, and monitoring it.
Not having a Class A or B unit on (which others could see) would be bad mistake if a collision happened with vessel that had an AIS. You might also get into a situation of defending a course of inferred sloppiness that might be construed against one.
JViss, I've been outside Nantucket off the shoals and surrounded by fishing boats, none of which seem to have their AIS units on in a bunch of thick fog. I suspect the don't want to reveal where the are catching fish. Sometimes they have their nets out, sometimes the are just moving from one position to another. It amazes me how a 70' steel trawler can not have a good, consistent radar return sometimes ;^)))).
—INTERNATIONAL— Steering and Sailing Rules RULE 7 Risk of Collision (a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist. (b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects. (c) Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty info
I think that "all available means" includes having your Class C AIS on, if you have one, and monitoring it.
Not having a Class A or B unit on (which others could see) would be bad mistake if a collision happened with vessel that had an AIS. You might also get into a situation of defending a course of inferred sloppiness that might be construed against one.
JViss, I've been outside Nantucket off the shoals and surrounded by fishing boats, none of which seem to have their AIS units on in a bunch of thick fog. I suspect the don't want to reveal where the are catching fish. Sometimes they have their nets out, sometimes the are just moving from one position to another. It amazes me how a 70' steel trawler can not have a good, consistent radar return sometimes ;^)))).
You are right about that, JViss.
This whole thread is a reminder about what might happen, as much as as what should happen. It also is a reminder about what other factors might affect a "clear" and "obvious" outcome.
I hope the skipper of the J Boat understood the law of Converging Angles. That would have been a true indication that they were indeed on a collision course. No finger pointing but I think he still should have taken evasive action to change the angle. Maybe luff a little until the other boat passed in front of the J Boat's bow.
If he spotted the powerboat at a mile, that's less than two minutes to impact. Not a lot of time to do much.
The fish charter was moving at 30kts, daylight and clear unlimited visibility, not standing a radio watch, did not respond to hail from the J105 regarding a potential collision. Was operating a new boat for the first time. Did not see a sailboat with all sails hoisted. It won’t matter whether he had his radar on or off, his basic navigation and safe boating skills were lacking. His license holds him to a higher standard of competency, as do his paying customers.
How long does it take you to realize, once you've spotted it, that a collision is likely? And how, exactly is a sailboat moving at 1/10th of a mile per minute supposed to avoid a collision with a boat bearing down on it at 1/2 mile per minute? The most he could possibly do is change his angle, the profile he presents to the motorboat. I would have turned towards the motorboat and hope for a glancing blow.
On the VHF...not that many will like it on a quiet morning...
Radio Watchkeeping Regulations
In general, any vessel equipped with a VHF marine radiotelephone (whether voluntarily or required to) must maintain a watch on channel 16 (156.800 MHz) whenever the radiotelephone is not being used to communicate.
Source: FCC 47 CFR §§ 80.148, 80.310, NTIA Manual 8.2.29.6.c(2)(e), ITU RR 31.18, 52.244
In addition, every power-driven vessel of 20 meters or over in length or of 100 tons and upwards carrying one or more passengers for hire, or a towing vessel of 26 feet or over in length, as well, as every dredge and floating plant operating near a channel or fairway, must also maintain a watch on channel 13 (156.650 MHz) --channel 67 (156.375 MHz) if operating on the lower Mississippi River-- ; while navigating on U.S. waters (which include the territorial sea, internal waters that are subject to tidal influence, and, those not subject to tidal influence but that are used or are determined to be capable of being used for substantial interstate or foreign commerce). Sequential monitoring techniques (scanners) alone cannot be used to meet this requirement; two radios (including portable radios, i.e. handhelds) or one radio with two receivers, are required. These vessels must also maintain a watch on the designated Vessel Traffic Service (VTS) frequency, in lieu of maintaining watch on channel 16, while transiting within a VTS area. See 33 CFR §§ 2.36, 26, and 161; 47 CFR §§ 80.148, 80.308-309; NTIA: NTIA Manual Chapter 8.2.29.7.
Digital Selective Calling
Ships, where so equipped, shall, while at sea, maintain an automatic digital selective calling watch on the appropriate distress & safety calling frequencies [e.g. channel 70] in the frequency bands in which they are operating. If operating in a GMDSS Sea Area A1 may discontinue their watch on channel 16. However, ships, where so equipped, shall also maintain watch on the appropriate frequencies for the automatic reception of transmissions of meteorological and navigational warnings and other urgent information for ships.
Ship stations complying with these provisions should, where practicable, maintain a watch on the frequency 156.650 MHz for communications related to the safety of navigation.
ITU RR 31.18, 25.244
Look at the water. That was no 8-10 knots. Perhaps in the gusts, but the waves are too small. Heck, the sails are barely filling, the leach ribbons are pointed down, and the flags are limp. Someone is exaggerating.
I've always kept a horn handy, mostly for oblivious port tack sailors with deck sweeping genoas. The charter boat might have heard it. I wouldn't expect a radio hail to be effective (too slow).
I'm guessing the USCG has a radio tape (the station is nearby) and I would think they will be reviewing GPS tracks, if available.
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https://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/data/5day2/TPLM2_5day.txt
Thomas Point Light. Time in GMT. 1200 local = 1400 Zulu
Thinwater, you're RIGHT! Maybe 5 knots.
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 22,329
This is a good question. The rule says to pass oncoming boats to Port. Turn to starboard.
But when the boat is heading towards your beam you have to consider all options to avoid a collision.
Based on the sail boat power boat difference, the sail boat thought he was the stand. On boat. If boats were under power the following chart is in play.
But because one is a sail boat the sail boat would be Stand on and the power boat is to I’ve way.
But to save his boat the sail boat might have turned and ran away from the oncoming speed boat. Note while this maneuver puts the stern of the sailboat towards the speed boat, the impact will be diminished some by the speed of the sail boat. (Two forces going in the same direction). Perhaps the thinner profile would allow the speed boat to slip by rather than TBone the sailboat.
Technically, I think that does put you in violation of 7b, but I think that in your given example it would be analogous to being in violation of a seat belt law while sitting in a parked car in a parking lot at a grocery store. I don't know of anyone ever being written up for either violation.
Then again, now that I think about it, under Guilianni's zero tolerance program, I did get a seat belt violation for moving my car across the street to comply with the alternate side of the street rules. It was literally a 50 foot move & I got written up for it. You would need to be dealing with a real jack booted thug to get written up for your given example though.
7(b) as posted in an earlier reply to this topic -
Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational,
including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and
radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.
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