Bad day in a J/24
- Thread starter Jackdaw
- Start date
I agree with Head Sail. It was a good thing the mast broke - I don't know if it was engineered for that or it was just the right time for it to break. At least everyone stayed on the boat. You have a certain vulnerability in a narrow passage like that with a low bridge at the end. The sudden shift sounds like a frontal wind which should have been predicted. Maybe it was avoidable. Maybe not.
What a freak deal. Where were all the other boats? Was everybody else out in the lake? I'm guessing they were the last ones in the channel under the bridge with the pink chute up? When the wind switched, they were still in the channel after everybody else got clear?
Man that was bad and I'm glad everyone is ok. So does this go more to the point of using a motor under the bridge to get clear as quickly as possible? Seems that the other boats were traveling faster or was the j24 already at hull speed with th chute and it would not have mattered they were just the last ones trough and that's the way it went. Crew looked calm and held on from what I saw. Nice work
I checked yesterday's weather there in Duluth and it appears there was a dramatic drop in temperature. The data from weather.gov doesn't show times and doesn't show windspeed so far as I could find. That large drop in temp would suggest a cold front coming through, the wind shifting from the south to north and the temp drop. Here it is:
https://w2.weather.gov/climate/getclimate.php?wfo=dlh
Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it's hard to believe the front wasn't predictable. You guys in the upper mid-West know what happened yesterday... Was that the case?
https://w2.weather.gov/climate/getclimate.php?wfo=dlh
Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it's hard to believe the front wasn't predictable. You guys in the upper mid-West know what happened yesterday... Was that the case?
With all those other sailboats, some of which also deployed their sounds spins, it was a good thing the winds only took the last boat thru. Imagine four or five getting caught asnd driven back into the bridge as one.
I'm glad no one was hurt and that they only lost a mast.
- Will (Dragonfly)
I'm glad no one was hurt and that they only lost a mast.
- Will (Dragonfly)
He was pretty much hove-to. That was 30+ knot winds they were in. I think it would have been a great trick of he could have pointed her at the bridge, heaved hard on the sheet, maybe hoisted the headsail (not the spinnaker) and sailed right under at a rail dunking heel. But alas, the angle of wind was all wrong.
If the captain had time to give up hope of recovery, dropping the mast may have been an option, but there was a spinnaker to work around.
Being quick to realize it is too late and just as quick on the anchor, anchor, anchor.
- Will (Dragonfly)
I'm willing to believe you, but I don't see what you mean.
Are you saying that if the boat had been pinned under the bridge and swamped, having an anchor in the water would make it worse? 'Cause, that doesn't sounds possible. I also don't think neglecting a possible avenue of escape because there is a possibility that it might not work when the other option is hit the bridge for sure, makes sense to me.
Please be aware, I am moving into the intellectual gym now. I don't see that the sailer in the two videos Jd posted, could have done anything to help themselves without more warning.
I'm amazed they got their spinnaker down at all.
- Will (Dragonfly)
With an anchor dragging in that current there would be 2 points of drag when the mast hit the bridge thus possibly preventing the boat from passing completely under as it did. Also, in the small amount of time shown on the video, there was little one could do but prepare for impact. Looks like the captain made the right choice once confronted with the inevitable.
I certainly agree with that, as far as the videos show coupled with Jd's synopsis
- Will (Dragonfly)
The chart says about 30 feet in that area. Let's just assume they have an anchor on board, and it is stowed in a location it can be deployed quickly (anyone here ever race a J24 with an anchor on a roller?) In those conditions you would need more than 5:1 scope to have any chance of the anchor setting, more like 7:1 if it is all rope. So now let's assume they have more than 200 feet of rode ready to deploy. There is a very slim chance any of us would have time to douse the spinnaker, deploy the anchor and get it to set in time to avert disaster. Against that wind and current, the only thing that could have saved them was a powerful engine.
I'm going to trade in for a Mac 26X.
I'm going to trade in for a Mac 26X.
I'm glad no one was hurt, but this all could have been avoided.
The time lapse video shows the J24 to be the last boat to go under the bridge and it appears that he was losing ground to the other boats. He was going slow. First this is just discourteous to the drivers waiting for the bridge to close, it might have only been a half minute or so, but don't we have an obligation pass beneath open bridges as quickly as possible?
Why was he going so slowly? He was trying sail, the video shows the spinnaker collapsing. Had he put the motor on and motored out to the course there is a good chance he would have been clear of the channel by the time the front hit. Even if he was in the channel, there would have been no spinnaker to deal with and he would have had better control over the boat, even with the small 4hp motors the J24s carry.
Didn't anyone check the forecast? It seems unusual for that large of a wind shift and change in velocity would not be forecasted. They may not have known the precise time of the weather change, but they should have known about it and been prepared, i.e., motoring not sailing in a restricted channel.
I spent a few years crewing for highly competitive J24 sailors. They were loathe to carry extra weight, including a 40 lb motor and they always wanted to practice on the way to the course. I would not be surprised that this crew was doing the same and now they bear the cost.
I get the desire to have the lightest fastest boat. But it can go too far. Some boats don't carry throwable devices or flares to save weight much less an outboard. We were racing in a regatta one year when the skipper forgot to insert a cotter ring on the forestay clevis pin. Halfway up the first weather leg the clevis pin fell out and we lost the forestay. In order to save weight the skipper did not have any spare clevis pins or rings and the only tools he had were the ones necessary to tune the rig. With some creative engineering we were able to save the rig, but really isn't this cutting to close to the edge?
As for the guys at DYC, its only a beer can race, will the weight of the outboard really make that much of a difference?
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The time lapse video shows the J24 to be the last boat to go under the bridge and it appears that he was losing ground to the other boats. He was going slow. First this is just discourteous to the drivers waiting for the bridge to close, it might have only been a half minute or so, but don't we have an obligation pass beneath open bridges as quickly as possible?
Why was he going so slowly? He was trying sail, the video shows the spinnaker collapsing. Had he put the motor on and motored out to the course there is a good chance he would have been clear of the channel by the time the front hit. Even if he was in the channel, there would have been no spinnaker to deal with and he would have had better control over the boat, even with the small 4hp motors the J24s carry.
Didn't anyone check the forecast? It seems unusual for that large of a wind shift and change in velocity would not be forecasted. They may not have known the precise time of the weather change, but they should have known about it and been prepared, i.e., motoring not sailing in a restricted channel.
I spent a few years crewing for highly competitive J24 sailors. They were loathe to carry extra weight, including a 40 lb motor and they always wanted to practice on the way to the course. I would not be surprised that this crew was doing the same and now they bear the cost.
I get the desire to have the lightest fastest boat. But it can go too far. Some boats don't carry throwable devices or flares to save weight much less an outboard. We were racing in a regatta one year when the skipper forgot to insert a cotter ring on the forestay clevis pin. Halfway up the first weather leg the clevis pin fell out and we lost the forestay. In order to save weight the skipper did not have any spare clevis pins or rings and the only tools he had were the ones necessary to tune the rig. With some creative engineering we were able to save the rig, but really isn't this cutting to close to the edge?
As for the guys at DYC, its only a beer can race, will the weight of the outboard really make that much of a difference?
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I don't have any interest in racing, but I always put safety first. Seems to me that weather forecast in this situation was ignored. If Dave is correct in that to save weight they didn't have power or anchor. Then I will have to quote Forrest Gump in as "Stupid is as stupid does".
Glad no one was hurt.
Glad no one was hurt.
I read you guys writing about weather forecasts and fronts and how someone should have known. But, I have never read a weather forecast that said, there will be a sudden 6 knot NW to 35 knot SE wind shift across the lake today. The forecasts I've read, say, there is a cold front coming through. The wind will be out of the NW turning SE to day. Going from 6 knots to 15 knots with gusts as high as 35 knots.
I know the wind can do what it just did in those videos and most of those boats who sailed under that bridge also know, but which one is to blame for failing to expect it to happen at that moment in that way? Obviously, the guy who suffered for it.
But that is sailing. It was nor avoidable because the last boat through had to be the last boat through. Haven't you guys ever read the story of Ping the Duck? Once he managed to fall in line and nor be the last duck, there was another last duck. Nobody wrote about him, poor duck.
Things could only have turned out differently if their timing was different and it is unreasonable to lay blame for a random event. (By random, I mean, without cause or unknowable).
It is sailing! Nature rules and $#!t happens.
On the other hand, these little discussions and arguments and differences of opinion only help us be more prepared for a time when it might be us out there at the mercy of wind and tide. Thanks, all of you, for that.
- Will (Dragonfly)
I know the wind can do what it just did in those videos and most of those boats who sailed under that bridge also know, but which one is to blame for failing to expect it to happen at that moment in that way? Obviously, the guy who suffered for it.
But that is sailing. It was nor avoidable because the last boat through had to be the last boat through. Haven't you guys ever read the story of Ping the Duck? Once he managed to fall in line and nor be the last duck, there was another last duck. Nobody wrote about him, poor duck.
Things could only have turned out differently if their timing was different and it is unreasonable to lay blame for a random event. (By random, I mean, without cause or unknowable).
It is sailing! Nature rules and $#!t happens.
On the other hand, these little discussions and arguments and differences of opinion only help us be more prepared for a time when it might be us out there at the mercy of wind and tide. Thanks, all of you, for that.
- Will (Dragonfly)
FYI. J/24 Class rules require both an anchor-with rode and an outboard. Both must satisfy a minimum weight. In the 30 years that I owned and raced a J/24, I probably used my anchor less than a half dozen times. So, it spent 29.9+ years stored in the locker under the seats below deck. That is the same place that the motor was stored when racing - low and out of the way. Not uncommon for us to stow the motor at the dock and sail out to the race course.
There were no random events in this video. The front could not be predicted minute precision, however, at least on Lake Ontario NOAA is getting very good at predicting frontal passages and showers with about an hour's time.
The bigger issue is not at all random, that is negotiating a narrow channel with a drawbridge under sail alone. That is just poor seamanship that was compounded by a sudden weather change. If if the wind had only gone to 10 knots instead of 35, with a spinnaker up in a narrow channel there is no where to go. Good seamanship means being reasonably prepared for any problem that may arise. That they didn't do.