"Should" the fisherman blast 5 times with a signal to indicate that they are unable to get out of the way?
They could have a legitimate issue with manuverabily.
Navigation Channel Markers
- Thread starter BobbyFunn
- Start date
They could have a legitimate issue with manuverabily.
@gettinthere its not a matter of how many, its a matter of perceived aggression and even if there were none to date, I certainly would not want to be the first.
I believe that Bobby's post indicates a rule that leaves the misbehaving fisherman at risk of getting issued a ticket. I do not believe that it erases the stand on status of that vessel. Since the other vessel is restricted in his ability to maneuver, even though it is because of a poor decision that the captain & crew made, I think that an approaching sailboat is still required to give way. Again, if you can point me to a rule that states otherwise, I will gladly reconsider my position.
To me, an analogous situation would be a car speeding up to hit a j-walker. It is obvious that, a j-walker is in the wrong by virtue of doing what he is doing. That doesn't erase the driver's responsibility to avoid the collision, if he can.
Please do not misconstrue any of what I am saying as supporting the fisherman's "right" to cause a hazard to navigation because he want's to fish in a spot where he should not be. That is not what I am saying here. That is obviously a bad thing to do. He should be charged for that offense if that happens. I am just saying that even in that case, I believe that the rules say that you should still not intentionally sail your boat at the idiot & possibly cause a crash.
The tread started with ..."When boating and sailing when it is required to be in the channel markers and when is it appropriate to go across them or simply tack in la la land going anywhere the centerboard fits..."
and drifted to the second amendment, waterway rage, kayaking on the Skookumchuck River and the war in Bosnia and fishing outriggers on sailboats. What ever do you mean?
I do not understand why you keep insisting a sport fisherman has any restriction to his maneuverability? The vessel is not, I repeat not, restricted in any way, even with downriggers as mentioned by one poster above. His gear may be at risk if he cannot pull it in fast enough to avoid it getting run down, but the vessel has full maneuverability at all times.
A commercial boat, on the other hand, may have huge nets, a long line with hundreds, if not thousands of baited hooks on it, several miles long or be engaged in pulling traps/pots, all of which inhibit those vessels' ability to maneuver.
So, once again I reiterate, a vessel engaged in fishing for pleasure, not showing the day shape or lights at night as required for a commercial fishing vessel, has no more priority on the water than any other motor boat.
I have been both a commercial and sport fishing captain, so I am well versed in the realities regarding both. Don't you think that when I had a potential world record marlin on the line I would have taken advantage of any rule or loophole in the rules to force other traffic away from my fish?
Certainly, avoid them whenever possible, but do so as a courtesy, not because you mistakenly think that they have some priority.
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If a cannonball is down on a stainless cable, the guy may not be able to turn in a certain direction without the stainless cable wrapping his prop & leaving him dead in the water. If a small boat is fishing a green stick, he may not be able to turn sharply without capsizing, especially if he is pulling a large bird. Those are two situations I can think of where a recreational fisherman might be restricted in ability to maneuver.
The two situations I just stated are rare cases. They are probably seen only a little more often than sailboats with outriggers, but they do exist.
Please do not misconstrue anything that I have said to indicate that I think some weekend yahoo who is dragging a couple of trolling lines has rights over a sailboat. That is not what I am saying. Please do not think that I am saying that a fisherman has a right to cut you off & thumb his nose at you. That is obviously wrong.
I passed my CG OUPV captains test with a 94% score within the last year. There was a discussion in my class about this question of what is a "vessel engaged in fishing" and instructor was VERY clear that capta is 100% correct on this point. You can argue with him all you want, but CG's opinion is the only thing that matters when it comes to COLREGS .
As for "restricted in ability to maneuver" the definition generally applies to draft for any vessels in a narrow passage or channel, or (commercial) vessels engaged in towing, dredging, or vessels so large that they can't change course and speed quickly. I doubt anyone reading this is operating such a vessel for pleasure.
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Have you ever fished with a downrigger?
When using a downrigger one must travel very, very slowly to keep the big round "cannon ball' straight down at the depth you want your bait/lure to fish. I mean one to less than three knots SLOW. If you speed up then this "cannon ball' will stream aft, come up and will be well clear of your prop(s) so a sharp turn is possible. Trolling fishing lines, one can make a turn nearly 180 degrees if one must, all it requires if one is slow trolling, is a bit more speed to keep the lines streaming aft, clear of the wheels.
So, once again, I'm telling you that sport fishing in no way inhibits a vessel's ability to maneuver. Nada, zero, niente.
rigging your POWERboat in a way that makes it dangerous to operate does not grant you any special privileges.
Downriggers are often fished off of a gunwale, near the stern. In the case of an outboard or an I/O, where the prop is aft of the downrigger, a turn away from the side that the downrigger is on can pass the cable right into the prop.
I stand by everything that I have posted here, but I don't have anything additional to add that I think would be productive. I have no appetite to feed an argumentative conversation. I am therefore going to quietly end my responses to this thread. I expect that we will continue to disagree & I accept that.
Regards,
Jim
Not quite Red over White, Fishing at night. Green over White is for trawlers https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=NavRulesAmalgamated#rule26
In any case, Capta's point is valid. You cannot expect other boats to know your status within the hierarchy of Rule 18 unless you put up the proper lights or day shapes. I can't guess that you're claiming priority for fishing, or Not under Command, etc., by just looking at your vessel. The ColRegs were designed over decades to provide a safe way for vessels to navigate around each other without hitting. When we are ignorant of them (I'm guessing 90% of recreational boaters) or ignore them, we are in a big game of chicken, and risking lives and property. I'm surprised at the number of boaters I've talked to that are otherwise intelligent adults, but only have a passing knowledge of ColRegs. It's like meeting drivers that aren't really sure what the difference between Stop and Yield are, but they just let the other guy go first so it's OK in the end, right?
Consider; a sailboat under spinnaker is also restricted in ability to maneuver, but if it needed to suddenly turn upwind to avoid collision it could do it. Yes it would foul the sail in the rigging, but that’s the best option under the circumstances.
I don’t think anyone is saying that a small fishing boat isn’t restricted by its own activity, but you should consider the greater perspective that on water (as on land) we’re governed by laws and you can’t make it up as you go. No matter if you think it’s the proper logic, your arguments wouldn’t hold up in court in event of a collision.
Jim, I write this respectfully- I think you would benefit from a training course. I’m not saying you don’t have good judgment or knowledge; just that you’re filling in some gaps with your own logic when there are other rules already put in place by the recognized authorities.
As a past sport fisherman (Hudson Canyon, Texas Tower, Mud Hole) I agree with capta and Charley
I find it very disingenuous of you to post a quote that you have chosen to edit.
This sort of offense is made worse when the veracity of the edit just might not be 100% on base. Perhaps in the limited scope of your fishing experience, & apparent limited observation of other fishing vessels, you have never noticed a downrigger mounted anywhere other than the single position where your edit states that one is “Always” located, but I have. Variations do exist.
Your Charlie Brown cartoon doesn’t seem to any useful information to the conversation either.
Please feel free to present dissenting opinions. Please do post sources of trustworthy information to support your assertions, when available. Please post new & useful information, if you have it. Please do not misquote people.
I’ve done some thinking about why it might be that you & I seem to be bumping heads on this subject as hard as we are. It seems a bit odd, since our perspectives are only off by a little bit. I think that recreational fishing boats have rights on rare occasion. You seem adamant that this is NEVER the case. Those two positions are not night & day apart. I’m not trying to say that you need to keep clear of all fishing vessels, or even most or even 10% of fishing vessels. I agree that the vast majority of the time, the vessel under sail is stand on.
After rereading both our posts, two things are apparent to me. 1) This is a touchy subject for you, due to previous bad experiences. & 2) I may not have chosen the best possible words when describing my position. I can’t do anything about your past bad experience, but I’d like to take a crack at explaining my position a little better.
When I described the narrow instances in which I believe a recreational fishing boat has stand on status, that status in not because he is fishing. The stand on status is due to that boat being a RAM vessel (restricted in ability to maneuver). In those cases, the RAM vessel just happens to also be a recreational fishing vessel. I expect to now hear about how RAM only applies to large ships, but I believe that it also applies to small vessels in certain cases, like when they have a broken rudder, they are taking on water, they have another vessel in short tow, etc.
You didn’t comment on my green stick example, so I will leave that one out. In the case of a small boat with a downrigger that has the cable dangling near an outboard prop, my thinking was this: If the only way that he can get out of the way of a sailboat, is to foul his prop by turning away from the downrigger, (because he is blocked on the other side & can’t turn the other way) & the sailboat has the ability to give way, then the sailboat should give way. If the sailboat fails to give way in that situation & a crash results, I really don’t think that the judge is going to let the sailboat captain off with zero responsibility (or even close to it). That opinion is based on the case law that I have read in the past. I am not a maritime lawyer, so my knowledge of such case law is limited. I am happy to read additional case law that shows me to be wrong, if someone can point me to it.
If you still believe that I am incorrect, please explain to me why & help me to understand the errors in my thinking. Please include references if possible, so that I can try to learn from them.
Thank you,
Jim
OK, I'll try this one more time.
Recreational fishing status gives that vessel zero priorities on the water. It is not open to interpretation, assumptions or any other questions. If you don't believe me call the coast guard.
A downrigger is operated from the stern quarter of a vessel; it just won't work anywhere else. If you'd ever fished with one you would know this. Downrigger fishing is very slow, as I mentioned. If a boat has two (or more) downriggers working it may not be able to turn radically, but it can stop at any time, or just pull up the riggers; many are electric and come up with the flick of a switch, automatically fairly quickly. Furthermore, as downriggers are down there, one would not often fish with them in skinny or congested waters, so most likely any encounter would happen in deeper, open water where the recreational fishing vessel would still be the burdened vessel.
I have operated sportfishing vessels in SE Alaska, Tutukaka, NZ, SF Bay area and offshore, Cairns, Australia and Florida, both coasts and the Keys, just to name a few of the places, professionally. It would be pretty damn irresponsible for me to be operating any of these vessels, especially with passengers aboard, without knowing the legalities of the job. Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law.
I have had only one profession over the last 5 decades and am not a retired stockbroker or lawyer who decided to become a Caribbean charter boat skipper later in life. I'm not guessing or supposing when I say that recreational fishing vessels have no more priority on the water than any other comparable motor vessel; that is how it is.
That's it. I have no more to say and I'm tired of repeating myself.