PFD's who needs one... It is only a day sail, a milk run really...

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,935
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
Secondly, he could swim 500 yards to a buoy but he couldn't swim to the boat? What was the other person on board doing that she couldn't stop the boat by simply turning up wind?
Recently, we had a similar case down here. A couple were close to finishing a TransAt (cruising, not racing) when he fell overboard. She apparently saw it happen (during sail handling) but failed to stop the boat and sailed on. She called for help, but he was never found. Lifejacket or not, who could possibly be ½ of a two person crew after all those miles of sailing, and not know the most basic of tactics to stop the boat; loose the sheets and turn the boat into the wind?
I don't care what is legislated or mandated by captain, government or race committee; You can not save people from their own stupidity. If they don't fall overboard and drown, they will get hit by the boom or find some other way of injuring/killing themselves. Darwin was onto something, I fear.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I don't care what is legislated or mandated by captain, government or race committee; You can not save people from their own stupidity. If they don't fall overboard and drown, they will get hit by the boom or find some other way of injuring/killing themselves.
Indeed, there is a misguided notation that you can legislate all the risk out of activities like boating. You cannot, and frankly to me that a huge part of the fun of it.
 
Oct 30, 2017
196
Caliber 40 LRC Lake Pueblo
Interesting thread and it has made me think.

I would never even think of kayaking (white water) without a PFD, helmet and frequently elbow pads.
When I used to sea kayak I had the pfd either bungied right in front of me or on me.

On the sailboat I have yet to put one on. I think I have told myself that we are "just" on a lake, and not that big of one, that I could swim to shore or back to the boat, ect...

My plan was to wear one when sailing solo, but I have not even done that.
I will now start to wear one when sailing solo and when we finally make it to boating on bigger water I will do so then as well.



This is very much like the ATGATT debate for motorcycles btw, it does come own to personal preference. Where I find it interesting is that on my bikes I am All The Gear All The Time, kayaking I've already discussed, Back country skiing I wear a helmet, knee pads and have avy gear and an avalanche float bag... but for some reason I don't treat sailing with the same respect for the damages that can occur. (again mostly because of the lake thing)... I need to re-eval.
 

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,935
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
My plan was to wear one when sailing solo, but I have not even done that. I will now start to wear one when sailing solo and when we finally make it to boating on bigger water I will do so then as well.
I singlehanded this boat for a year or so before I met my now wife and sailing partner and it never occurred to me to wear a PFD when offshore sailing alone. I have little desire to die slowly out in the middle of the ocean. This is not a comment on inshore or lake sailing and PFD's, just out on the deep blue sea.
However, as mentioned above, too much reliance on safety gear can make one complacent and that is when mistakes are much more likely to happen. Ours is a 900 foot cliff, and I instill terror into those who sail with us about what will happen when they hit the bottom of that cliff. If they don't believe me, I'll chuck a coconut overboard and tell them to watch it carefully while I call off the time it would take us to get the boat turned around and headed back for the coconut. Then I ask, "where is the MOB?" Rarely, if ever, is it still in sight even though they have been watching it very carefully. Then they get it.
 
Last edited:

jwing

.
Jun 5, 2014
503
ODay Mariner Guntersville
If they don't believe me, I'll chuck a coconut overboard and tell them to watch it carefully while I call off the time it would take us to get the boat turned around and headed back for the coconut. Then I ask, "where is the MOB?" Rarely, if ever, is it still in sight even though they have been watching it very carefully. Then they get it.
I don't think that is a good illustration unless you also show them the proper MOB drill. I teach my guests that the pristine bright orange cushion lives in one and only one spot and that it is only to be used to toss to a MOB, first thing. The guests are further instructed that if they are the MOB, then they should swim to the orange cushion and hold it vertically and pointed to the boat.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,977
O'Day Mariner 19 Littleton, NH
too much reliance on safety gear can make one complacent and that is when mistakes are much more likely to happen
Studies have been done that show the utilisation of safety equipment leads to more dangerous behavior. Cyclists in helmets ride more recklessly. Drivers in seatbelts drive faster... called risk compensation.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation
The study doesn't suggest that safety equipment doesn't work, only that the benefits may not be as big as expected.
- Will (Dragonfly)
 

jwing

.
Jun 5, 2014
503
ODay Mariner Guntersville
... on my bikes I am All The Gear All The Time, kayaking I've already discussed, Back country skiing I wear a helmet, ... but for some reason I don't treat sailing with the same respect for the damages that can occur.
I wonder why small boat sailors don't wear helmets. I'm guessing the most of the ways that a person can accidentally go overboard also involves a strong possibility of a blow to the head by the boom or on the way down. That is why you should at least wear a Type I PFD while sailing.
 
Aug 20, 2010
1,399
Oday 27 Oak Orchard
However, as mentioned above, too much reliance on safety gear can make one complacent and that is when mistakes are much more likely to happen. Ours is a 900 foot cliff, and I instill terror into those who sail with us about what will happen when they hit the bottom of that cliff. If they don't believe me, I'll chuck a coconut overboard and tell them to watch it carefully while I call off the time it would take us to get the boat turned around and headed back for the coconut. Then I ask, "where is the MOB?" Rarely, if ever, is it still in sight even though they have been watching it very carefully. Then they get it.
I will second the complacency breeds carelessness, Capta. I see it in an industrial environment daily both with safety and quality issues. The incidence of errors increases with every system installed to prevent these same errors. Here is a lovely breakdown of fatalities provided for 2016 by our friends in the CG. The number of drowning fatalities for sailboats is tiny. I don't belittle anyone for wearing one. My crew gets briefed and practices in MOB procedures but they also get the real world 'coconut over the side' usually a chunk of log in 1 to 2 foot waves. Loads of fun having them try to keep whatever flotsam has been spotted in sight in even mild conditions and having them try to get back to it.

2016 EXECUTIVE SUMMARY 

In 2016, the Coast Guard counted 4,463 accidents that involved 701 deaths, 2,903 injuries and approximately $49 million dollars of damage to property as a result of recreational boating accidents.  The fatality rate was 5.9 deaths per 100,000 registered recreational vessels. This rate represents a 11.3% increase from last year’s fatality rate of 5.3 deaths per 100,000 registered recreational vessels.  Compared to 2015, the number of accidents increased 7.3%, the number of deaths increased 12%, and the number of injuries increased 11.1%.  Where cause of death was known, 80% of fatal boating accident victims drowned. Of those drowning victims with reported life jacket usage, 83% were not wearing a life jacket.  Eight out of every ten boaters who drowned were using vessels less than 21 feet in length.  Alcohol use is the leading known contributing factor in fatal boating accidents; where the primary cause was known, it was listed as the leading factor in 15% of deaths.  Where instruction was known, 77% of deaths occurred on boats where the operator did not receive boating safety instruction. Only 13% percent of deaths occurred on vessels where the operator had received a nationally-approved boating safety education certificate.  There were 171 accidents in which at least one person was struck by a propeller. Collectively, these accidents resulted in 24 deaths and 175 injuries.  Operator inattention, operator inexperience, improper lookout, excessive speed, and machinery failure rank as the top five primary contributing factors in accidents.  Where data was known, the most common vessel types involved in reported accidents were open motorboats (47%), personal watercraft (18%), and cabin motorboats (15%).  Where data was known, the vessel types with the highest percentage of deaths were open motorboats (47%), kayaks (13%), and canoes (9%).  The 11,861,811 recreational vessels registered by the states in 2016 represent a 0.04% decrease from last year when 11,867,049 recreational vessels were registered. Recreational Boating Statistics 2016 6
 

jwing

.
Jun 5, 2014
503
ODay Mariner Guntersville
Studies have been done that show the utilisation of safety equipment leads to more dangerous behavior.
I don't need to read a study to know that that is true for some people. I do not play with them. A helmet may keep your skull from cracking, but it won't keep your neck from breaking. I use protective gear for all risky endeavors (including mowing the lawn), but my brain is the most effective piece of safety equipment I have. Safety protocols that minimize injury risk are always followed.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,977
O'Day Mariner 19 Littleton, NH
A helmet may keep your skull from cracking, but it won't keep your neck from breaking.
It also won't keep you from getting a concussion, depending on the severity and angle of the blow. Concussions are directly the result of your head stopping suddenly while your brain keeps going. I've had 6. Yep, that's what happened to me. Now you know. :doh::banghead::doh:o_O:confused::lastweek:
- Will (Dragonfly)
 
Oct 30, 2017
196
Caliber 40 LRC Lake Pueblo
That depends on the helmet and the design.

A lot of helmets are designed to do exactly that... by absorbing the movement of your head they slow down the sudden stop. This is why bicycle and motorcycle helmets should be replaced after a crash.
Bicycle helmets are now coming with a ‘new’ design that also helps reduce the torsional forces of a crash, further increasing their effectiveness of helping to reduce concussions.

I have also had multiple concussions. Both without helmets and at least one with a helmet (kayaking)



Speaking of concussions, I was ready a study that had a direct link to multiple concussions and dementia. This report stated that if you have more than 2 confirmed concussions your chances of getting dementia goes up by 80%.

... so I quit going to the MD after head traumas. If I don’t go in they can’t “confirm” the concussion and I’m safe.
 
  • Like
Likes: Will Gilmore
Oct 19, 2017
7,977
O'Day Mariner 19 Littleton, NH
Well, I guess that explains why you don't use a pfd while sailing.
I used my PFD while kayaking as armor against rocks more than for flotation. My son's kayak PFD was much smaller than mine, not as good for padding against rocks but better for movement and only good for flotation.
20171220_062504.jpg

My son.
I would think padding would be important here.
- Will (Dragonfly)
 

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,935
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
Interestingly my father, who was an orthopedic surgeon, was always against the motorcycle helmets available in the 60's, 70's and 80's, saying that the added weight was a danger to the neck and the reduced visibility and hearing were potentially the cause of more accidents.
Perhaps helmet designs have changed since those days?
 
Mar 30, 2013
700
Allied Seawind MK II 32' Oologah Lake, Oklahoma
The list of screw-ups in the article boggles the mind.

One of the things I do when I take out non-sailors on my boat is to instruct them on what to do should I fall off the boat or otherwise become incapacitated. That includes how to drop the sails and how to stop the engine and what to do with the big blue throwable floatation cushion. Emergency phone numbers are put in their phones and a quick basic emergency radio call is explained.
I wear an auto-inflate PFD anytime I'm out alone or if I'm with non-sailors or if the water temp is into hypothermia range.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,977
O'Day Mariner 19 Littleton, NH
perhaps there is a market for integrated self inflating PFD s into slickers and t-shirts. My guess is style and self-image kills as much as anything else.
- Will (Dragonfly)
 

jwing

.
Jun 5, 2014
503
ODay Mariner Guntersville
I used my PFD while kayaking as armor against rocks more than for flotation. My son's kayak PFD was much smaller than mine, not as good for padding against rocks but better for movement and only good for flotation
I find that there are two major advantages to using my whitewater kayak PFD over the inflatable kind. First, I have a back pad that follows me wherever I go in the boat. For my body and my particular boat, that is big. Second, a ww PFD, like the one Will's son is wearing, is cooler/more comfortable than the inflatables, mainly because there's no yoke around the neck. A minor advantage is that I can jump in the water with my PFD on. I like to cool off on bob and bake days by drinking a cold beer while floating next to the boat. My rescue knife is attached to my PFD. I have at least 7 lines in my cockpit; I can't imagine sailing without a quick-draw, serrated rescue knife.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes: Will Gilmore

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,935
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
I can't imagine sailing without a quick-draw, serrated rescue knife.
When is the last time you actually had to cut a line in your cockpit in earnest? I can't remember when I last did it and I sail a LOT!
Anybody else had to cut a line in earnest anytime in recent history?
 

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
23,145
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Capta, No I have not needed to cut a line in anger, but I have had to clear line jam, tighten a shackle to complete a wire tie, and break a shackle bolt free to release a sail.
The marlin spike on my knive has come in rather handy. Hopeful I do not need the knife blade, but nice to have it available should the moment demand it.
Better to have it when you don’t need it than to need it and not have it.
 

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,935
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
Capta, No I have not needed to cut a line in anger, but I have had to clear line jam, tighten a shackle to complete a wire tie, and break a shackle bolt free to release a sail.
The marlin spike on my knive has come in rather handy. Hopeful I do not need the knife blade, but nice to have it available should the moment demand it.
Better to have it when you don’t need it than to need it and not have it.
Not really my point. Of course, we not only have a rigging knife w/a spike and a spike in a pouch @ the companionway, but I was curious if any of us actually had to cut a line in the cockpit recently, in earnest. Not maintenance or repairs, but HAD to cut a line.
 
  • Like
Likes: dziedzicmj