For a 22ft S2 being stored outside with mast up in Northern Minnesota, should the turnbuckles on the stays be loosened to accommodate extreme cold weather effect? Periods of 22-40 below zero each winter are common.
Loosen stays for winter storage?
- Thread starter Tsam
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+1 for what @LakeOntario270 said but why not just lower the mast and tarp the boat? If its stored outside and untarped ice buildup on any lines left on the boat such as the Halyards as well as the deck may be an issue particularly in the spring when we get the freeze thaw cycle.
The contraction strain is less of an issue than the ice, snow, and potential damage if the boat blows over. The aluminum mast and stays also contract.
If you must leave it up, unless you have the rig very tight, I don't think that should be an issue.
What's the practice in the boats up there near Lake Woebegone?
If you must leave it up, unless you have the rig very tight, I don't think that should be an issue.
What's the practice in the boats up there near Lake Woebegone?
This seems to be an annual question. To summarize:
Aluminum ( the mast) contracts in winter more than does steel (the stays).
Consequently, cold inherently causes the stays to lose tension. If you further loosen them, you exacerbate the vibration and movement of the mast.
So - the answer is no - don't loosen the stays.
If there is any doubt, see:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-expansion-metals-d_859.html.
Parenthetically, why people post declarative answers without actually knowing the answer is baffling. Expressing opinion is fine but wrong opinions aren't...
Aluminum ( the mast) contracts in winter more than does steel (the stays).
Consequently, cold inherently causes the stays to lose tension. If you further loosen them, you exacerbate the vibration and movement of the mast.
So - the answer is no - don't loosen the stays.
If there is any doubt, see:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-expansion-metals-d_859.html.
Parenthetically, why people post declarative answers without actually knowing the answer is baffling. Expressing opinion is fine but wrong opinions aren't...
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And by “here” you mean the internet.
(See how I did that without any hint of uncertainty?
)To the OP - I agree with the others that the shrouds shouldn’t contract more than anything else, so there should be no need to significantly loosen anything. If you keep the rig tighter than usual for some reason (like to accommodate some special cut of your sails), my guess is you could probably back them off a little. But too loose and they’ll just flex more adding to metal fatigue.
Wow guys kinda harsh on the forum lately! Being a Minnesotan also with a 22 foot boat I take my mast down but based on the harsh winters and the freeze thaw cycle if I left the mast up I would loosen the stays. Not to make them loose but to de-tension the rig and take the rake out of the mast. It's only a 22 foot boat were talking about here not a large costal cruser. Just what I would do and what countless others do up here as well. Not wrong just different for the northern climate were in.
The problem with taking tension out is that the effect is somewhat counter intuitive. A tighter rig (within limits) is stiffer, which means less metal flexing. Flexing metal gets fatigued, and fatigued metal is weaker.
It is true that aluminum contracts more than stainless steel as the "base" temperature drops.
IF the effective lengths were the same, then a 50' length and there was a 100 degree F drop FROM THE BASE, then contraction about 2/10" more in aluminum than stainless steel. However the mast is shorter than the fore and back stay; and the side stays somewhat longer. Our friend from near Lake Woebegone has a lot less than a 50' mast -- or stays for that matter.
As I and others pointed-out, it's really a question of whether your rig is very tight to start with vs. the temperature differential issue itself. Your backstay tension might have a tension of many multiples of 2/10" just to adjust the sail shape.
The side stays are less likely to be an issue of overtightening -- but that depends on you.
I think you should keep the rig STABILIZED and not flopping. But I wouldn't have it bone tight all winter for a variety of reasons.
9.6 13.1 Coefficient
0.000001 0.000001 "/"
100 100 Degrees
600 600 Number of Inches
0.576 0.786
IF the effective lengths were the same, then a 50' length and there was a 100 degree F drop FROM THE BASE, then contraction about 2/10" more in aluminum than stainless steel. However the mast is shorter than the fore and back stay; and the side stays somewhat longer. Our friend from near Lake Woebegone has a lot less than a 50' mast -- or stays for that matter.
As I and others pointed-out, it's really a question of whether your rig is very tight to start with vs. the temperature differential issue itself. Your backstay tension might have a tension of many multiples of 2/10" just to adjust the sail shape.
The side stays are less likely to be an issue of overtightening -- but that depends on you.
I think you should keep the rig STABILIZED and not flopping. But I wouldn't have it bone tight all winter for a variety of reasons.
9.6 13.1 Coefficient
0.000001 0.000001 "/"
100 100 Degrees
600 600 Number of Inches
0.576 0.786
I see no reason to loosen a rig that you are not going to unstep. Loosening the rig allows more stresses to be transmitted to the mast. It is the same as if you are sailing with a loose rig.
Any vibration in the rig gets passed to the mast. Additionally, if the mast can move, it will stress the rig and endanger itself in a high wind. Imagine a mast and its shrouds snapping repeatedly in a 40 mph wind.
A mast on a 22 ft boat can be stepped and unstepped easily. It is safer either on the ground or laying on crutches on deck. If you cannot do it alone, use a gin-pole or get a friend to help.
I would unstep the mast.
Any vibration in the rig gets passed to the mast. Additionally, if the mast can move, it will stress the rig and endanger itself in a high wind. Imagine a mast and its shrouds snapping repeatedly in a 40 mph wind.
A mast on a 22 ft boat can be stepped and unstepped easily. It is safer either on the ground or laying on crutches on deck. If you cannot do it alone, use a gin-pole or get a friend to help.
I would unstep the mast.
Hopefully my comment wasn't too "harsh" but it it is, I apologize for being a curmudgeon.
Having said that, it concerns me when I see someone giving dubious answers to questions by expressing it as a declarative statement rather than the opinion it really is. We all all here to learn and seek or provide assistance but well-intended wrong answers are a disservice.
22 to 40 degrees below zero? I would put it on a trailer and take it to Florida for the winter. You may need to tighten the rig there. But you could lose the snow suit and boots. Jeez, that's cold.
My rigger disagrees with you. Here is his advice.
"Yes you should, it is good practice in that it avoids excess tension
and strain on the deck, chainplates and covers alike!
You should put a tape mark on the threads of the turnbuckles
and back everything off by 3 to 5 turns as deemed necessary.
Remember to include the backstay in this exercise as well.
Come next Spring you can recover your original tune -up after'
the boat goes in the water again, not on land!"
Same advice for the following year when I left the boat in the water over the winter. I tend to trust his opinion.
BTW, this is in the Chesapeake Bay area so the temperature differences may not be as extreme. YMMV
But it was just explained why this is in fact incorrect (aluminum contracts more than steel).
Taking the mast down may be the best practice. But it isn't because of the cold per se, it is because of the wind and snow.
Is Don wrong in any technical point? Not that I see.
As for reducing tension on the Chesapeake, I don't get the reasoning. I've sailed year round for 40 years and I am quite sure I have never loosened the rig. If the steady pressure of pre-tension, which is many times less than sailing forces, is a problem, then something is rather too light. Metal certainly does not mind steady tension; there is no science behind that. In fact, cycling is the problem.
Do be careful to grease the threads to prevent galling and turn the buckles very slowly to prevent heating.
Here is a bit of info based on the last 7 years with the mast up over the winter in Montreal, where we can also get the -25 and colder days.
Rig tension is the same summer or winter. In the beginning I took the solar panel off for the winter but for the last 5 years it has stayed on the boat but I do incline it a bit to help the snow slide off (parallel with the arms of the davits). The boat is quite close to the house,. so I do visit regularly and I have been surprised to see that there has never been any ice (or snow on the panel) buildup, even after a freezing rain event. To be sure, with freezing rain, the boat does ice up a bit but it's all gone a day or two later. Ditto for snow on the panel which is usually clear the day after a storm. The added advantage of having the panel up over the winter is that it keeps the batteries topped up quite nicely.
This works for me but, of course YMMV
Matt
Rig tension is the same summer or winter. In the beginning I took the solar panel off for the winter but for the last 5 years it has stayed on the boat but I do incline it a bit to help the snow slide off (parallel with the arms of the davits). The boat is quite close to the house,. so I do visit regularly and I have been surprised to see that there has never been any ice (or snow on the panel) buildup, even after a freezing rain event. To be sure, with freezing rain, the boat does ice up a bit but it's all gone a day or two later. Ditto for snow on the panel which is usually clear the day after a storm. The added advantage of having the panel up over the winter is that it keeps the batteries topped up quite nicely.
This works for me but, of course YMMV
Matt
I still don’t get it.
There should be no “excess tension” in a properly tensioned rig. Thus, there is no excess tension on any of the parts of the rig.
Rather it seems proper tension should be maintained at all times. 5 “turns” on each side will slack the rig tremendously. The mast will rock in a wind, creating a shock load that could snap it at the connecting points for the shrouds.
You would not want your mast to move if the boat were in the water in ANY weather.
People who sail in the arctic or Antarctic do not slack their rigs because of cold. People who sail in the tropics do not slack their rigs or tighten them for temperature.
I would maintain the proper tension at all times.
Read the Loos Tension Gauge instructions on why you want proper tension. Improper tension is much harder on a rig, allowing unequal forces to be applied with sudden force.
There should be no “excess tension” in a properly tensioned rig. Thus, there is no excess tension on any of the parts of the rig.
Rather it seems proper tension should be maintained at all times. 5 “turns” on each side will slack the rig tremendously. The mast will rock in a wind, creating a shock load that could snap it at the connecting points for the shrouds.
You would not want your mast to move if the boat were in the water in ANY weather.
People who sail in the arctic or Antarctic do not slack their rigs because of cold. People who sail in the tropics do not slack their rigs or tighten them for temperature.
I would maintain the proper tension at all times.
Read the Loos Tension Gauge instructions on why you want proper tension. Improper tension is much harder on a rig, allowing unequal forces to be applied with sudden force.
I disagree with your first sentence. It appears to me that you do "get it".
It is certainly fine to disagree. I asked the guy who does rigging for a living (and has for a while)and that is his opinion. He did my rigging and tuned it and that is what he suggested. My boat is old so perhaps that plays into his advice. I didn't ask. Anecdotal stories of "mine is fine and I never do anything" don't carry quite as much weight for me. But as I said, YMMV.