Time management - Fog

Kings Gambit · May 23, 2017

Scott T-Bird said:
I must have missed the conversation that said to stare at the radar and GPS screens and drive by autopilot. Who said that?

I think he's paraphrasing post #3; inserting the word autopilot by inference. In the case referred to, me mate was below reading the chart plotter and radar; I was at the helm. It doesn't say my eyes were "glued..."

Don S/V ILLusion · May 23, 2017

Remember high school physics?
Stopping in reduced visibility can often create a hazard to others, particularly to those more experienced boaters used to maneuvering in fog. It's much easier to get out of the way of an approaching vessel if you are moving at a speed appropriate for the conditions.

jon hansen · May 23, 2017

Rick D said:
Some of this seems a bit weird to me. You don't always have a choice about where you are when the fog rolls in. I have been caught out dozens of miles in open ocean in essentially zero visibility. Maybe a boat length at most. I reduced speed but more for sound management than anything else. Roll up the dodger window. Probably spend most time on radar scanning around me a little less than half the time. Of course, I don't think that's the conditions most of you are talking about. I imagine you are talking about bays, rivers, etc. When in the (huge) Los Angeles/Long Beach port complex, I will try to run along the breakwater which may not be the best choice given the number of fishing skiffs there even in those conditions. I watch the radar, GPS & AIS closely and monitor traffic control but also watch around me. What percentage? I don't know. Whatever feels right I guess. I don't voluntarily go out in those conditions of course. I am installing a 4G radar which will give me better close-in detail. Those big mooring buoys for the barges don't always show up so well on my old radar despite the tune.

i like everything you just wrote. be safe

vhoisington · May 23, 2017

So the COLREGS say proceed at a Safe Speed, there are no specifics about stopping distance, etc. There are actually questions on the USCG test that cover this exact issue.

However, and as noted here, there are varying levels of experience from newbies on their first boat to seasoned professionals with more years of experience than I can count. Based upon the COLREGS safe speed for some is dead stop and for others its slow ahead.

As to electronics they should not be relied upon as the sole source of truth but, rather as another tool in the tool box to help. Eyes, Ears, the feel of the wind, rumble of a diesel engine, radar blips ( yes wood and fiberglass do show up on some radars), fog horns (yours and the sound from others) all combine to give a mental picture of what is happening and where others are located. Knowledge/or lack there of, of the local area help a skipper decide either to proceed or stay put, are you in a channel or wandering through a remote cove? What is the tide/current doing to your boat or others. Where is the wind blowing from? All these questions must be answered by the skipper and factored into the decision to proceed or not.

Fog causes a good skipper to use all his/her senses and tools available, to ensure we are visible and can "see" what is out there. We can't always just stop and yet we shouldn't just barge ahead at full throttle. As the captain of my vessel, I prepare both the boat and crew, providing the best tools I can to ensure safe passage in all conditions.

Fair winds (and sunny skies)

capta · May 23, 2017

jon hansen said:
you do not travel in fog. you stop the vessel. period!
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I did one trip from Shelburne, Nova Scotia to Kingston, Toronto where the fog was so thick I could rarely see the bow of the boat from the helm (80' boat). I spent the entire trip parked in front of the radar with charts and pilot books spread out about me, giving courses to the person on the helm. No AIS, GPS or chartplotters in those days!
The whole trip up the St Lawrence Seaway there were ships a plenty and we all seemed to manage just fine. Traffic on the water cannot come to a stop because of reduced or limited visibility in the day time any more than it can as darkness falls.
As for stopping the vessel and ceasing to command your vessel, that just puts you at the mercy of any other vessel underway, so I do not see that as a viable or sensible option.
Having been raised in the Frisco Bay area, for the most part. I am no stranger to dense fog. There were times on the PCH that it was necessary to dismount my motorcycle and walk beside it trying to follow white line in the center of the road, for fear of riding over the edge and plunging some hundreds of feet into the Pacific Ocean (few guard rails in those days). Sailing in the fog on the Bay was certainly exciting and a challenge, but I can't remember one race being cancelled due to fog. It's probably not that way today, in our 'nanny' society, which is a shame IMO.
Each buoy and obstacle on the water had a different sound and everyone on the water knew them. Imagine if you can, ghosting through the fog, and having Alcatraz appear a hundred feet or so off your bow. Also imagine the guards with their 'Tommy guns' racing to the water's edge to dissuade you from coming nearer. And they would shoot at you in those days, if you ventured too close!
Ah, the good old days.......

jon hansen · May 23, 2017

the op had another thread about being in a collision at sea underway. bummer. i read his report many times, he felt he was proceeding correctly, but asked what else could he have done. i thought about it a lot.

i have been sailing sailboats for 58 years. i have well over a million miles at sea. i have driven boats from 12' to 1,000'. the only job i have ever had is that of a mariner.

i have driven 10s of 1000s of miles in pea soup fog, but i never wrote such in the log. it was always 'light haze'. there is what we strive for and then there is the real world. i get it.
i have never stopped learning my whole career. i am very set in my ways. i have gotten away with some scary stuff.

to the op and your other thread. in my not so humble opinion. you and your budy were going to fast for conditions. that motor fishing boat that hit you is an example of whats out there. .... and there are sailboaters that scare me too.

jon hansen · May 23, 2017

this sure has made for some good descusion. be safe

Johnb · May 23, 2017

Some things to do even if all you have is VHF and GPS

1 Keep a chart, or copy thereof, pre marked with waypoints to head for if fog descends. Put a matching set of waypoints into your GPS.
2 Practice listening to and absorbing the meaning of the vessel traffic service (VTS) messages in your area.
3 Know your limitations

jssailem · May 23, 2017

jon hansen said:
the op had another thread about being in a collision at sea underway.

Hi Jon.
I wrote the other thread. I was the buddy boat you mentioned. We were proceeding within the COLREGS, using all of our resources. Had we stopped we would have been just as vulnerable to the skipper of the fishing boat. That we were under way and had steerage I was able to avoid a greater accident. I could have stopped within the 35 feet length of my boat but would have been struck on the starboard side just forward of the mast. As Les the OP on this thread said to me after the event, "I expected to be pulling you from the water and splinters of your boat."

Sail boats with Masts and Radar reflectors 18 feet above the water produce a solid reflection signal to radar receivers and individuals who know how to interpret the reflected signal. Have radar? turn it on and try to identify the targets then confirm them thru visual sightings/binoculars.

In the conditions we faced, and being a solo sailor I would not have proceeded out on the cruise alone. Waiting would have been just fine. Having 2 boats and the equipment to navigate safely our decision to proceed on the cruise was (in my opinion) a reasonable decision. Based on our successful 4.5 hour cruise in challenging conditions across ferry routes with knowledge of where we were and where they were we safely navigated our craft. There is no way of knowing the fishing boat would be out there ignoring all of the rules & regulations we all use to safely cruise the waters. Just like there is no way of knowing the red Honda you see driving towards you will not cross the double yellow line and crash into you. Do you have a plan for this possible event?

So back to the original question... Scanning and understanding signals from radar/AIS is an art just like listening for noises in fog. Fog raises the level of awareness/anxeity. You can not do it for long periods. You will loose focus and that is when you are vulnerable. If you have your head in the cockpit focused only on the screen you are just as vulnerable in fog as when you abandon the electronics and stare out into the grey mist. Work up a scanning procedure and follow it. Check the radar. Have the alarms set for 1 mile or .5 miles. Look at 2 pictures when you scan the radar. Near and far, then switch back to near. Be sure to allow a couple of sweeps to occur at each setting. If you have trails set them to on and moderate tail length. This feature can help when the reflected signal from a target is minimal. You can get a sense of the direction of the minimal target from the tail it leaves. A short tail with gaps may indicate speed of the target. A slow moving target leaves a connected tail. A fast moving target will appear as a series of blips based upon the speed of your antenna rotation.

AIS provides info from transponder sending targets. Commercial traffic is required to have AIS A transponders. This worked well in our trip. We knew well in advance the 8 plus knot Tugs towing barges in the Sound. You need to practice the sequences of your equipment to be able to identify targets that are important and filter out/ignore those that will not cross your path. Can you use DCS calling?

Maybe 5 minutes for all the above. Then you have time to get your head out. Listen to the fog. Boat motors, people talking, horns, sounds picked up by the PA Hailer/Listening feature, or lights coming at you.

5 or so minutes then back to electronics. Sure your going to be busy.

GO out and Practice with all of your equipment. Can you identify a buoy using your radar reflections? Can you see the same buoy during your practice? I know when I flew we would take off and land on a beautiful clear day with a visor over our eyes using only the instruments and radio to guide the plane.

Think out a plan and be prepared to execute it before you leave the dock. It saved my life in the situation I wrote about.

njlarry · May 23, 2017

Agree with Les and John.
But I am very troubled by the nieavity of many fellow boaters in regards to the perceived perfection of radar and AIS. People who actually use them over long periods can attest that both technologies can miss very large ships in plain sight.
No black box is a substitute for skill and luck. I say luck because a skilled experienced mariner friend sailed into shallow water to avoid traffic and still a barge found him.

jssailem · May 23, 2017

njlarry said:
and still a barge found him

as Forrest Gump would say... Sorry for your friend. Hope all was well, Larry.

Kings Gambit · May 23, 2017

Obviously, you cannot depend on radar to report everything that's out there all of the time. Collision with another vessel is only one risk of travelling in fog. Collision with other things, including the seafloor, is also possible; so, you have to know where you are. W/o good visual, you must ultimately depend on your navigation instruments and your chart. These include your depth meter, your compass, and your GPS/plotter--along with your eyes, ears, and nose (yes--you can smell stuff around you in some instances.)

jon hansen · May 23, 2017

jssailem, your choice of boat helped too i'm thinking. those cal boats are strong. love cal boats. tough and good sailers. i have a 69' cal 20 in my collection, for the kids, now grandkids. they will learn more without dad aboard. make mistakes without the yelling. it's in great shape with fresh sails. the little ones are allowed unlimited usage. its a bulldog of a boat

25yearslater · May 23, 2017

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/409/140

capta · May 23, 2017

In point of fact, the older (1970's ish) ColRegs stated that one could not use electronic navigation systems (radar to be specific) to make decisions about the operation of the vessel in restricted visibility.
Some years later, as the equipment improved and the operators were better able to interpret it, this was dropped from the ColRegs.
If you can't see much beyond the bow of your boat, then you must either sail blindly on or use whatever is available to you to make a safe port. AIS is absolutely pointless IMO unless every vessel on the water has it. Radar, on the other hand, can show the operator everything from the biggest ship to the wave tops around your boat, if the person operating it can interpret the information available properly. Radars can selectively pick up wave tops or not, increase the return of buoys or ships, or not as the operator desires. Wooden and fiberglass boats are indeed visible on radar at a few miles, again if the equipment is properly adjusted. Sometimes 'auto' is not the best setting for the conditions.
Every licensed commercial larger vessel operator is schooled and certified in the proper use of radar (http://www.seaschool.com/course_details.php?cid=radar_observer). Why would an amateur think he could just turn it on and get the best from his equipment? I'm sure many haven't even read and completely comprehended the information in their radar manuals. Here again knowledge and experience are power. The power to make informed decisions using whatever is at the captain's command.
I trust both my radars implicitly. More so than my chartplotter/GPS or my vision in restricted visibility, and will comfortably make my decisions based on the information it displays.

Terry Cox · May 23, 2017

Motored and sailed in fog as thick as soup some number of times, especially during the month of Fogust. Prefer under sail so that I can hear others abound, but usually around these parts we have wind or fog but not both. No AIS or radar here, just a keen sense of vision, hearing, common sense and fog horn blasts at proper intervals with AP off. Do check GPS periodically to ensure proper course since so easy to become disoriented.

jon hansen · May 23, 2017

Kings Gambit said:
So, the sea dawgs and professional mariners who essentially write the regulations lack common sense if your prescription is not included? If we wish to talk to newbies about good seamanship then advising adequate preparation for travelling in fog is better than advising to essentially "freeze" in place and hope for the best--isn't it?

so twentyfiveyearslater was kind enough to pass on the law i spoke of.
articule 16 of inland rule of nav. 3u.s.c. 192. ,or the" half distance rule" is the law up here on the lakes. the freeze in place and be safe IS IT ! not my prescription, it's the law up here as well as simple common sense.

but, you offshore boys can run as blind as you want i guess. i teach not to.

Time management - Fog

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SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John

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SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John

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