New-to-me boat-buying exasperation!

[justsomeguy]

I've identified a beautifully staged IP35, 1990/'93, but am dealing with a recalcitrant owner WRT a sea trial. A medical issue with one of the owners is nixing the other from making the trip to the boat. The offer I'd given, contingent on an acceptable survey and sea trial, was "accepted", except for the sea trial. So...
And when I say "beautifully staged", I mean you could eat off the motor; decks and soles are immaculately clean, etc. I need to see the boat in action, whether the 27 year old aluminum tanks have any issues, and a standing rigging inspection from the top down, motor leaks, etc..
It also seems that every locally available marine surveyor (approx. TWO) is either a close friend of the brokers and sellers, or far and away more expensive than all other costs/foot quoted by the others, even some of the ones I'd need to import for the job.

[meekly] Any suggestions?

 

[Parsons]

You know the answers - so why ask us amateurs? You pays your money and you takes your chances. BTW, aluminum tanks, assuming not waste holding. BTW, where is this spotless IP located?

 

[Gunni]

Why are you doing this on your own? Buyer's Brokers get paid to deal with these headaches. Your broker could negotiate to get any number of inspections done; engine inspector for the fuel system, rigger, etc. Especially if you flashed some bigly earnest money! FYI, typically a sea trial happens the same day as the survey. They are not independent excursions. You have your surveyor aboard to inspect and collaborate with you. By the time you get to sea trial you should know what to look for, and what needs "trial". A good buyers broker knows the surveyor community and since they buy about 300 surveys a year they can command better responses than you. Since you seem to have found your mistress, you could actually negotiate with a broker for a reduced percentage to get you this boat with the remainder of the seller broker shared fee coming directly to you.

 

[justsomeguy]

You know the answers - so why ask us amateurs? You pays your money and you takes your chances. BTW, aluminum tanks, assuming not waste holding. BTW, where is this spotless IP located?

I feel I need to bounce this "no sea trial" business off of others, amateurs or not.

I could swap out the freshwater and blackwater tanks with plastic, but that would probably also entail hose work. The fuel tank, according to the broker, should have some diesel in it. I smell nothing when entering the salon.

San Carlos, MX.

 

[justsomeguy]

Why are you doing this on your own? Buyer's Brokers get paid to deal with these headaches. Your broker could negotiate to get any number of inspections done; engine inspector for the fuel system, rigger, etc. Especially if you flashed some bigly earnest money! FYI, typically a sea trial happens the same day as the survey. They are not independent excursions. You have your surveyor aboard to inspect and collaborate with you. By the time you get to sea trial you should know what to look for, and what needs "trial". A good buyers broker knows the surveyor community and since they buy about 300 surveys a year they can command better responses than you. Since you seem to have found your mistress, you could actually negotiate with a broker for a reduced percentage to get you this boat with the remainder of the seller broker shared fee coming directly to you.

Why? Because the broker seems to be working more for the seller, not me, at the moment.

I'm currently negotiating my hiring a captain that the seller will trust to get a sea trial in the works. I have no real problem doing my own survey, and have been granted a fair leeway toward that end.
I may:
"Do your own extensive inspection, which means:
- run or operate systems that you are knowledgeable about operating (not watermaker in the harbor).
- Climb the mast and do your own rigging inspection (your (sic) liable for injury)
- No cutting holes, removing secured panels or inspections requiring component disassembly.
- No damage, changing or alterations to the vessel.
- Vessel must be clean when you are finished.
- No removal of any item, data, manuals or information from the vessel
- Must be performed under supervision of the sellers representative (broker).

I was wrong about climbing the mast and performing your own inspection. The closing date will be determined by the completion of your survey and final acceptance of the sales agreement."

So there.

 

[dlochner]

I've never had a sea trial before buying a boat as in both cases it was prohibitively expensive to do so. Instead, a portion of the purchase price was escrowed pending launching the boat and running the engine etc. Had problems arisen, then all or some of the escrow amount would be returned to me to address the repairs.

 

[uncledom]

On my second boat, I had the seller agree to a ludicrous amount of escrow money that was held back for anything that we might find awry once we splashed the boat. He also did not want a sea trial. The boat was winterized and on the hard and if we weren't going to commit to buying it that was where it was going to stay. He wound up paying for some miscellaneous items and the rest of the funds were released. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[justsomeguy]

I've never had a sea trial before buying a boat as in both cases it was prohibitively expensive to do so. Instead, a portion of the purchase price was escrowed pending launching the boat and running the engine etc. Had problems arisen, then all or some of the escrow amount would be returned to me to address the repairs.

Thanks. How much is "prohibitively expensive"?

 

[dlochner]

Why? Because the broker seems to be working more for the seller, not me, at the moment.

The listing broker always works for the seller not the buyer. You would have to have your own broker from another brokerage with a specific agreement to be a buyer's broker.

 

[JRT]

I guess it depends on how much money we are talking. I asked for a sea trail with the owner of my $2,500 1976 O'Day 25, mostly because we had the price we wanted and just wanted the orientation to the boat with the owner. No survey, because it is a 1976 fresh water boat that has been in the same 10 nm area since new and it is just $2,500. If I'm not paying cash for a boat and it isn't new then I assume I would need a survey for insurance and the loan, sea trial not so much.

In Mexico I would natural assume I was getting ripped off if they were making excuses and everyone is a friend that you are dealing with, you need a broker on your side to deal with it. I assume the money isn't insignificant, so you are a bit nervous and wondering it is so nice looking something must be messed up. Everyone I think has their own level of risk to money so if it feels wrong walk away and see what the sellers come back to.

 

[justsomeguy]

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

That's why I love you people. Age and experience beats youth and exuberance most days.

 

[dlochner]

Thanks. How much is "prohibitively expensive"?

The first boat would have required launching the boat, stepping the mast and rigging the boat and then taking the mast back down. We were bringing back via the Erie Canal.

The second boat was purchased in the fall. It would have to have been launched, mast stepped and rigged, mast unstepped and derived, hauled and winterized and then launched again in the spring. Again we were bringing the boat through the Erie Canal so the mast would have to come down.

 

[justsomeguy]

If I'm not paying cash for a boat and it isn't new then I assume I would need a survey for insurance and the loan, sea trial not so much.

We will be working a cash deal. There's a survey from 2011 I've looked at, but most systems (especially electronics) were only noted, not tested.

I appreciate everyone's input thus far. I've got to make a run into town for a bit, so forgive me if I've missed replying to everyone. Later.

 

[justsomeguy]

The first boat would have required launching the boat, stepping the mast and rigging the boat and then taking the mast back down. We were bringing back via the Erie Canal.

The second boat was purchased in the fall. It would have to have been launched, mast stepped and rigged, mast unstepped and derived, hauled and winterized and then launched again in the spring. Again we were bringing the boat through the Erie Canal so the mast would have to come down.

This boat's slipped and rigged. It's the seller who's stymied up the works, so far.

 

[JRT]

So is a IP35, 1990/'93, and Island Packet 35? I don't really understand the 1990/'93 reference. I guess with a 6 year old survey and unknown on electronics I'd get a new survey at least.

I think I found the listing, it does seem to be listed a significant price below what the same vintage is going for in the states. Could be a warning or could be the fact it is in Mexico and less people want to deal with the unknown.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Good luck, sounds like a nice boat, well cared for.

Have you spent any time on www.cruisersforum.com? A fellow there, a64pilot, has an IP 38 and has written extensively about them. He bought a used one about your vintage maybe two years ago. In addition to the tanks, part of your standing rigging should be the chainplates. IIRC, on all of these IPs they are embedded in the fiberglass OR cleverly hidden behind a lot of built-in woodwork OR both. He has reported quite a bit on them. You might want to go there and find out more. He is planning an offshore voyage from Louisiana, and thus is spending $$$$ on redoing them. Just something else for you to research and know about.

You can do an advanced search there on his name and the subject.

 

[dlochner]

There are 2 main reasons to hire a surveyor, either the bank or insurance company wants a survey or the buyer does not feel confident in assessing the boat's condition.

If the survey is for the insurance company, then get one in the least expensive way that is acceptable to the insurance company. If it is your confidence, then hire a good, but expensive broker.

There should be plenty of information about the IP35 here: IP Home Port - The Official Website For Island Packet Yacht Owners Since 1998

 

[justsomeguy]

So is a IP35, 1990/'93, and Island Packet 35? I don't really understand the 1990/'93 reference.

Yes. According to the HIN, '90, but elsewhere, '93.

 

[justsomeguy]

Good luck, sounds like a nice boat, well cared for.

Thank you, Stu.

 

[justsomeguy]

There should be plenty of information about the IP35 here: IP Home Port - The Official Website For Island Packet Yacht Owners Since 1998

Been there, done that.
The survey would be mostly for the insurer. If I felt like having an insurer.