COLREGS interpretation RE incident

[Skipper]

Opinions please. I have mine already. Want others'.

Who is in good standing in this situation, regarding both COLREGS and courtesy.

Inside a harbor channel. Speed 5 knots.

Boat A is a 30 foot motor vessel.
Boat B is a 60 foot motor vessel.
Neither is encumbered, and both are able to maneuver with ease in the circumstances.

Boat A is ahead by 75 feet, and to 25 feet starboard of boat B.
The harbor channel makes a left turn, but there is the option to continue ahead to a corner docking area.
Boat A turns to port, following traffic and the main channel. This maneuver cuts across boat B's starboard bow, as boat B turned out to be heading ahead to the corner dock. Sufficient room; but still a little close.
Any problem here?

Different scenario, same boats:
Boat A is entering the harbor at the mouth. Boat B is too, to port and aft of boat A.
The harbor channel splits here, with one channel available ahead to the west harbor, and one channel available to starboard to the east harbor.
Boat B passes and then turns to starboard across boat A's port bow, to head to the east harbor. Boat A has to turn to avoid collision.
Something wrong here?

 

[Rick Webb]

Overtaking vessel is the give way vessel, always, almost, sometimes

 

[Michael Davis]

Boat A is the stand-on vessel in both cases. Col. Regs. the over taking vessel will stand clear.

 

[Davidasailor26]

With regard to courtesy I'd say Boat B is wrong in both cases. He knows he needs to get at least as far to starboard as anyone else, so he should not be setting up to port in hopes of getting around.

The "stand on" question is an interesting one. In situation 1, I agree with the others that B is overtaking, and so A is stand-on. But does stand-on give A the right to turn to port to follow the main channel when there is a channel straight ahead?

In situation 2, strictly speaking it is possible that B completed passing A and was no longer overtaking. Then, if B turns gently enough as to keep A more than 112.5 degrees off his bow, A could be considered overtaking when they cross. Still not sure B's stand-on obligation would allow him to turn toward A in that way.

 

[jeepbluetj]

Ahhh,,, I know so well of what you describe...
Incident #1 - Clearly overtaking. A is stand on, B is give way. As the typical flow of the channel is to flow through the port turn, it's still stand on for A and give way for B. (West marina going out past the anchorage?)

Incident #2 - no doubt. B was give way. Then B decided to accelerate and cut A off. If B could do it without encumbering A, no harm no foul ('cept for the no wake). otherwise B is a total d-head. B was undoubtedly in a center-console fishing vessel equipped with testosterone and beer. A was stand-on the whole way. You can't pass a stand-on and gain stand-on if there isn't enough room to allow it. (IMHO, and IANAL). I may have thought to get really close to ramming them, but hey, I've got an old boat.

Ahh... I've had that #2 description happen to me dozens of times. And I'm turning into the east basin - not even going out to the west. Coming in, get passed to port then cut off on the turn to the east basin. I've seen it happen for lots of folks going down the channel to the west. (And I really have no probs with fisherdudes... they just learn to drive the dang boat... sheeesh)

 

[Skipper]

Good. Thank you.
About overtaking; and I've read COLREGS in detail long ago and there is (was) no mention that I recall, regarding how long a time is a vessel considered to be overtaking?
If boat A had recently passed Boat B in the first scenario, due to a slowing of boat B and a better angle into the harbor by Boat A, but the overtaking had been completed and both were riding same speed in the separation amount stated, is boat A still an overtaking boat?

Common sense says just steer and avoid regardless. There's a reason for all this inquiry
I'll tell you later.

Edit: oh, we're all posting at the same time . The guys above answered this some.

 

[Skipper]

Ahhh,,, I know so well of what you describe...
Incident #1 - Clearly overtaking. A is stand on, B is give way. As the typical flow of the channel is to flow through the port turn, it's still stand on for A and give way for B. (West marina going out past the anchorage?)

Incident #2 - no doubt. B was give way. Then B decided to accelerate and cut A off. If B could do it without encumbering A, no harm no foul ('cept for the no wake). otherwise B is a total d-head. B was undoubtedly in a center-console fishing vessel equipped with testosterone and beer. A was stand-on the whole way. You can't pass a stand-on and gain stand-on if there isn't enough room to allow it. (IMHO, and IANAL). I may have thought to get really close to ramming them, but hey, I've got an old boat.

Ahh... I've had that #2 description happen to me dozens of times. And I'm turning into the east basin - not even going out to the west. Coming in, get passed to port then cut off on the turn to the east basin. I've seen it happen for lots of folks going down the channel to the west. (And I really have no probs with fisherdudes... they just learn to drive the dang boat... sheeesh)

Incident 2 was as you say. Had boat A been heading to the west basin, there would have been a collision (if no drastic action). As it was, boat A was headed for the east side, but still had to maneuver off course to avoid.
Incident 1 was the left turn coming into the east side in front of the harbor patrol station.

 

[Davidasailor26]

As the typical flow of the channel is to flow through the port turn, it's still stand on for A and give way for B.

I totally agree that that's how it should work, but all I can find in the COLREGS is that "Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and speed." Keeping course wouldn't allow A to follow the main channel. Surely I'm overlooking something that allows A to turn?

 

[Davidasailor26]

there is (was) no mention that I recall, regarding how long a time is a vessel considered to be overtaking?

COLREGS does have a statement that "Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear."

So, in situation 2, I'm guessing B remains overtaking and must stay clear until she is "past and clear" of A. At which time, presumably on a subsequent cross A would be either overtaking or crossing, depending on the angle.

 

[Ron20324]

[QUOTE="Davidasailor26...Keeping course wouldn't allow A to follow the main channel. Surely I'm overlooking something that allows A to turn?[/QUOTE]

Following the channel IS keeping the course. Otherwise, you'd be cutting across the channel, creating a hazard, then run into the shallows.

 

[Skipper]

COLREGS does have a statement that "Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear."

So, in situation 2, I'm guessing B remains overtaking and must stay clear until she is "past and clear" of A. At which time, presumably on a subsequent cross A would be either overtaking or crossing, depending on the angle.

Thank you. You found "past and clear". I missed that.
So even if A had passed B on number 1, A was past and clear (and pacing B) when she initiated her turn to port.

 

[capta]

If both vessels are traveling at the same speed the overtaking rules do not apply. Any alteration of course done within 75 feet of a vessel astern, especially one that creates a crossing situation, is completely against any good practice of seamanship, and pretty stupid. 75 feet at 5 knots would probably not be nearly enough distance for the following vessel to avoid a collision. However, if the vessel in front signaled his intentions prior to his maneuver, giving the following vessel sufficient time to respond and act, then proper crossing rules would apply.
This is a great example of why there are whistle signals and why every one of us should know them and use them. The VHF is not a good substitute for not knowing and using proper whistle signals.

 

[Skipper]

If both vessels are traveling at the same speed the overtaking rules do not apply. Any alteration of course done within 75 feet of a vessel astern, especially one that creates a crossing situation, is completely against any good practice of seamanship, and pretty stupid. 75 feet at 5 knots would probably not be nearly enough distance for the following vessel to avoid a collision. However, if the vessel in front signaled his intentions prior to his maneuver, giving the following vessel sufficient time to respond and act, then proper crossing rules would apply.
This is a great example of why there are whistle signals and why every one of us should know them and use them. The VHF is not a good substitute for not knowing and using proper whistle signals.

Thanks, Capta.
I know some signals. Hard to remember them all.
What is the whistle signal for "I'm the guy ahead of you and I'm turning to port"?
It's a good recommendation. However, I've been coming in and out of this harbor for many years, and have never heard a whistle or horn signal. Horn blasting but no true signal code. Even if I used it, they'd likely think I was just honking at them.
I'm giving away the end of this story a little here: :-D
The following vessel should have already known how to react, for every keelboat in the history of this harbor has turned to port at that juncture to follow the main channel. And I was stand on. And the other vessel was a commercial vessel with a captain who should be intimate with the harbor. Irrelevant for COLREGS, but applicable to courtesy and his having sufficient time to respond and react. He should have anticipated the turn, (which he did and I noticed and acted on it), and stuck to courtesy and COLREGS.
Also, and very important, how can vessel A magically know that vessel B's course is ahead? The assumption is that all boats will follow the channel with traffic. So how can skipper A be making a stupid move?

It was 75 feet at the crossing. Eyeball measurement. That is, when his bow was abeam, looked like 75. At our speed, it appeared more than adequate. I checked first. There was no collision danger. Just a close proximity. This happens every minute in close harbors. This time, however, something different happened that prompted this thread. I'd like a couple more opinions before I tell the rest. :-D

 

[Jacktar]

The general Prudential rule applies to all incidents regardless of alleged right of way of either vessel to wit: Each vessel is obligated to take such action as is needed to avoid a collision. See maritime law and actual decisions rendered by hearing boards.

 

[Kermit]

Sounds to me there was no incident. Yep, Boat B shoulda given way but there was no collision. I think at most Boat A might have been justified in using a globally-accepted hand signal. But then Boat B was bigger and might have been carrying bigger ordnance.

 

[Sailm8]

Should have used his turn signal.

 

[shemandr]

I think they both are crossing situations. What length they are is irrelevant. When boat A alters course to cross boats B's course the relationship is that boat B has boat A crossing from Starboard to Port. Boat B is to give way. Boat B may hail boat A to tell him he is an a**hole, but he must give way. Rules 15 & 17 as described here:
https://www.uscg.mil/hq/cgcvc/cvc3/references/Rules_of_Road_Quick_Reference.pdf

 

[duality]

Rule 9

First off it dosn't matter if its power or sail.

(b)���� A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

Then

d)���� A vessel shall not cross a narrow passage or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.

 

[Davidasailor26]

Rule 9

First off it dosn't matter if its power or sail.

(b)���� A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

Then

d)���� A vessel shall not cross a narrow passage or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.

But if the channel splits, with the main channel going left, and a navigable side channel going straight, then it's not the case that A can only operate in the main channel.

 

[jeepbluetj]

Ahh... I now understand better where you were. Yup, the 60 ft undoubtedly knew you would turn to port to go up the east channel. OTOH, you knew they were gonna go straight. I have always figured that's a T intersection in the channel and the big guys are gonna just muscle their way in/out. I just throttle way back and let em pass me. Amazing that neither of the two boats ran down an rental kayak

I've been at full throttle flying out the channel to just try to keep the express from running me over several times. Nothin to do but just gun it.