Battery Woes update...

[Skip Gundlach]

Battery Woes update...

When you last saw this title, we had our 4xL16, bank 740AH, batteries which
weren't performing to our satisfaction.

Several pros chimed in and either posted in one of the places I posed our
issue, or wrote to me directly.

Symptoms, they agreed, pointed to chronic undercharging. Likely the cause
was promoted by either and/or both being misled, perhaps, by our Tri-Metric
2022 monitor, as the batteries aged, or merely our not letting them charge
fully enough before shutting off our Honda 2000. (Recall that we have 370w
solar, KISS wind generator, 1500w/70A inverter charger and 40A shore
charger, plus a 70A alternator when we motor - which in our charging scheme,
is nearly never.)

Cure, the pros (and industry literature I got keyed to or sent) suggested,
might be repetitive cycles of deep (50%) discharge, followed by full
charging and then 3 hours of equalization.

We moved onto a dock to be able to take advantage of the adequate power to
run both our 70A inverter/charger, and our 40A shore charger. We also
followed one's suggestion of getting a 200W bulb, and running all AC devices
possible (to the max 1500W) and everything we could turn on to achieve a
quicker draw--down. So, oddly for us, of course, instead of trying to
minimize use, we were maximizing it, turning off our shore power at night.
Having every light in the boat on, every fan, and our freezer set to a place
it could not achieve (run at high speed all the time), all charge-able items
connected to AC and the lamp and a fan running on the inverter and the
battery box, at night was a bit disorienting.

We then reversed the procedure, turning on the shore power (for the
chargers), running our freezer set point up to its minimum use and turning
off every other load, in order to charge as quickly as possible.

We allowed for an all-day charge cycle, with whatever assistance was
available from wind and solar, and then equalized after dark before turning
off the shore power and starting our drain.

All along (from start through this point), bank (12V battery) 2 was always
hotter than bank 1 (in parallel to bank 1), and it got pretty warm along the
way, which I think caused the heat probe to throttle back the amps, but kept
the voltage up during some of the equalization cycles. For several days, it
looked promising, as the consumed AH went deeper each time, before it got
low enough to kick out the inverter or the freezer. However, the deepest we
could get it was 40% discharged before it got low enough (11.3 or so; we
were asleep so I never actually saw that happen).

So, we let it rest for a couple of days on shore charge, making it fully
charged, and equalized occasionally. Yesterday I equalized 3 separate
times, and then we read the specific gravities. All were markedly improved
from where we started, and, unlike the first time, when bank 1 was at
ambient, but bank 2 at elevated temperatures, this time both banks were
elevated in temperatures. We adjusted with our temperature-compensated
hydrometer, but didn't top up bank 2, which had used rather more water than
we had found in our initial equalizations. I assume this would have led to
slightly higher SGs than was warranted had I topped them off, and equalized
again.

So, bank 1 is batteries b1&b4 and bank 2 is b2&b3. Temperature adjusted SGs
were, in order (1-12, moving clockwise from the first cell, all
one-dot -1.xxx - values): 263, 258, 263 (b1), 334, 319, 319 (b2), 319, 319,
319 (b3), 258, 258, 258 (b4)

So, with one exception, all cells were essentially the same per battery, and
within margins to be 'not bad' cells. However, Bank 2 (b3&4) was still
undercharged, despite being hotter (19 temp adjust vs 8 on bank 1). Hm.

So, I decided to swap b3 and b4, changing one each, to see if that changed
matters. These weigh 125# each, so I knew it would be a wrestling match.
After unhooking, and taping off, the necessary leads to allow those two to
be lifted out of the box, I started. Hm. Not only is it heavy, but it
seems to not want to come more than a few inches up. Muck around with the
lifting straps we'd made, but since these were able to fit into the box with
their original handles still attached, used those. Made sure the straps
were clear, and tried again to use the straps.

Same deal. Hm. Strong light down the sections between the batteries.
Oops. The interior short side (between b3 and b4) of b4 was seriously
bulged. If one cell is bulged, even though the specific gravities were the
same in all but one (263 vs 258) of the cells in bank 1, the whole system is
dead. That bank 1 was not even fully charged just confirms it. However, I
speculate, as it's well into the charge range, that bank 2 (5 cells 319, one
334) is just fine. If someone wants them for more than whatever the core
charge would be, I'm happy to have you get them in Vero Beach City Marina.
We'd have to coordinate with my new batteries, in order that I still
function aboard, of course.

So, now starts the challenge of finding some solution which won't be any
worse than I know it will have to be, most likely well over a boat buck.
Scuttlebutt at one of our cruisers' Monday Night Burger Night (the source of
all my Mr. Manatee tee shirts I earn for me, the admiral, and her kin) had
someone here renting a car and driving to Miami, the savings were so
significant; that's a possibility, I suppose, but having an able-bodied
assistant in getting these out, and the new ones in, might be necessary; a
delivery would have the appropriate personal strength and equipment to make
the transfers more routine.

What I'm going to be looking for will be L16 (floor sweeper, e.g.)
batteries, preferably high capacity (over 400AH), vertical lugs taking
bolts.

Various pros have expressed that my charge sources - aside from more solar
being always a good thing - are fine, but that I need to reset my monitor to
new or zeroed values every time I equalize, and spend a great deal more time
in my float-off charging. The best solution for US will be to nearly double
our solar capacity with two 345w panels, exchanging for our 3 (370w, 11
years old and not nearly as efficient as the new ones would be), as we have
the available real estate in roughly the same size as our current solar
array, and our MPPT charger can handle those effective amps. So, I need to
move that up on the priority li$t; if we had all that solar (usually), not
only would we not be as deeply depleted, but our float-out would have ample
power every day, not waiting for our Honda to drive us deaf.

So:

Do you want a pair of 30-month old L16s, cheap?

And...

Recommendations for the least expensive solution to 4 more batteries in Vero
Beach FL?

Thanks, all, for reading this far and for all the assistance which has been
previously rendered.

Skip
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig

 

[whatfiero]

Were you able to revive 2 of the 4 batteries, for either temp 12v power or to have a good bank and old back up bank. I believe whenever you run 2 6v battery in bank mode they need to be separated and charged independent to extend life

 

[centerline]

Thanks for the update...
at the first sign of battery troubles in a bank that has been working well, always look hard for the battery that is failing, as its usually the cause of the symptoms you have noticed.
then, as a follow up, address why the battery went bad which is usually easier to determine... either under charging, over charging, a parasitic draw, or sometimes its just a faulty/short lived battery.....

when one troubleshoots it the other way, the problem can be found rather quickly and remedied to fix the root problem... and think its all good. and it will be for awhile longer, but the bad battery that has been overlooked is still bringing down the others and soon you will be back cussing, worrying and scratching your head wondering why the batteries are giving you trouble again...

 

[ITMaster]

I was having a similar issue with one bank not being the same as the other. I found that not all of my ground cables went to the engine block. As soon as I put all grounds to the block the problem went away

 

[Ron20324]

......not all of my ground cables went to the engine block. As soon as I put all grounds to the block the problem went away

You should not have run each BATTERY NEG TO THE BLOCK. SHOULDA PUT THEM ON ONE NEG BUSS BAR, THEN RUN ONE GROUND TO THE BLOCK.

 

[Maine Sail]

Symptoms, they agreed, pointed to chronic undercharging. Likely the causewas promoted by either and/or both being misled, perhaps, by our Tri-Metric
2022 monitor, as the batteries aged, or merely our not letting them charge
fully enough before shutting off our Honda 2000.

Even below you stated that you only discharged 40% of the assumed capacity yet your voltage dipped to 11.3V which is much closer to 0% - 15% SOC. You are still putting too much weight on your Ah counter.

You seem to be cherry picking what you want to hear as a solution and have apparently chosen to ignore much of the very sage advice you've received on charging at the proper absorption voltages here and elsewhere.

(Recall that we have 370w
solar, KISS wind generator, 1500w/70A inverter charger and 40A shore
charger, plus a 70A alternator when we motor - which in our charging scheme,
is nearly never.)

And none of this matters much if the charging voltages and absorption-duration are far too low & far too short for cyclic duty on L-16's..

Cure, the pros suggested, might be repetitive cycles of deep (50%) discharge, followed by full charging and then 3 hours of equalization.

This is not a cure it is a Band-Aid. Sure repetitive deep cycling of thick plate batteries, with full recharges, at the proper absorption voltages, can re-open some of the internal pathways and can yield a slight improvement in usable capacity but these are minimal/slight improvements. Based on what you state below you went far beyond 50% and your batteries beyond repair....

We moved onto a dock to be able to take advantage of the adequate power to run both our 70A inverter/charger, and our 40A shore charger.

At what absorption voltages and absorption duration are you going to be charging the next bank?

We also followed one's suggestion of getting a 200W bulb, and running all AC devices possible (to the max 1500W) and everything we could turn on to achieve a quicker draw--down.

Did this person not understand Peukert?

So, oddly for us, of course, instead of trying to minimize use, we were maximizing it, turning off our shore power at night. For several days, it looked promising, as the consumed AH went deeper each time, before it got low enough to kick out the inverter or the freezer. However, the deepest we could get it was 40% discharged before it got low enough (11.3 or so; we were asleep so I never actually saw that happen).

Here is likely why your first bank was murdered. You are putting far too much trust in -Ah's with not a clue as to what the actual Ah capacity of the bank is?


Using -Ah's against an unknown Ah capacity = Murdered Batteries

At a 20 hour discharge rate, which would be 37A on a 740Ah assumed capacity bank, you'll cross the 20% SOC line at approx 11.7V UNDER A 37A LOAD.. 11.3V is murder...... This is why you need to stop trusting your Ah counter for SOC. Your bank is no longer the Ah capacity the Ah counter thinks it is.

The interior short side (between b3 and b4) of b4 was seriously
bulged.

They are done... Read my original post about un-balanced batteries.

Various pros have expressed that my charge sources - aside from more solar being always a good thing - are fine,

In a PSOC application, unless your Deka's are charging at 14.6V - 14.7V (temp compensated) they are not going to be fine. Deka L-16's do even better at 14.8V but Deka recommends 14.7V for this type of use.

These batteries then need to be charged, at absorption voltage (14.7V) until the change in net accepted current, at absorption voltage, is less than 0.1A over a 1 hour period or 12 hours of absorption max, which ever comes first. What this means is this;

14.7V & +2.1A beginning of measured hour & end of measured hour 14.7V & +2.1A = Full Battery Bank.

14.7V & +2.1A beginning of measured hour & end of measured hour 14.7V & +1.9A = Battery Bank NOT Full

Battery voltage rises to 14.7V and 12 hours later this voltage needs to be dropped to float. (not usually a worry with the crappy charge equipment we have that uses "egg-timers")

but that I need to reset my monitor to
new or zeroed values every time I equalize, and spend a great deal more time
in my float-off charging.

Unless you know the exact Ah capacity of your battery, because you've physically tested it, you need to ignore your Ah counter, as related to SOC, other than for voltage. In other words STOP DISCHARGING AT 12.2V!!!

The best solution for US will be to nearly double
our solar capacity with two 345w panels, exchanging for our 3 (370w, 11
years old and not nearly as efficient as the new ones would be),

This is your take away? Try adjusting your controllers absorption voltage and absorption-duration FIRST... For a cruiser your solar should almost never go into float because there is usually insufficient solar time in each day to get a flooded deep cycle battery to 100% SOC unless you started early in the AM using fossil fuels to push through bulk. More solar is always a good thing but your charging voltages, as previously referenced, are grossly inadequate for a PSOC application.

You also never accurately answered how this "bank" is used. Is it a contiguously wired 740Ah bank or two 370Ah banks? This can also make a huge difference?

How do you plan to commission the new series batteries to ensure they are in SOC balance? If you don't start correctly, and charge at the correct voltages for PSOC use your new batteries will suffer the same fate...

 

[Skip Gundlach]

Just a quickie question: How say you about a Balmar monitor?
And, my bank is one piece electrically - one lead to each of positive and negative busses, into which all charging sources also lead, with the possible exception of the alternator; it MAY go to the start battery directly, though I don't think so.

We have guests, so I'll come back in more detail later.

 

[Skip Gundlach]

Were you able to revive 2 of the 4 batteries, for either temp 12v power or to have a good bank and old back up bank. I believe whenever you run 2 6v battery in bank mode they need to be separated and charged independent to extend life

Actually, likely all 4 could have been brought back. The one I called battery 2 was easily revived (well, perhaps I should say "well revived" - based on the SGR), and battery 1 MIGHT have been salvageable save the bulge.

That bulged cell was the same as the others in the L16 (all 3 1.258 corrected for temp), so I have no idea as to why it should have bulged. But that was a deal killer for me; it's a new bank for Flying Pig.

and...

Thanks for the update...
at the first sign of battery troubles in a bank that has been working well, always look hard for the battery that is failing, as its usually the cause of the symptoms you have noticed.
then, as a follow up, address why the battery went bad which is usually easier to determine... either under charging, over charging, a parasitic draw, or sometimes its just a faulty/short lived battery.....

when one troubleshoots it the other way, the problem can be found rather quickly and remedied to fix the root problem... and think its all good. and it will be for awhile longer, but the bad battery that has been overlooked is still bringing down the others and soon you will be back cussing, worrying and scratching your head wondering why the batteries are giving you trouble again...

Well, 'always working well' is subject to question here, as we have routinely had to charge more than I thought was necessary/should have been necessary - and yet, the consensus is that we were chronically undercharging. I'm attempting to remedy that with more solar and more accurate info, which likely will lead to more frequent and longer charging, though, given the differences in efficiency (21% vs 15%) and wattage (370 12 year old panels vs 690 new), I might nearly triple the actual amp hours I gain on any given day. If I can bulk charge quickly, likely I could do the rest via the solar (and whatever wind happened to be contributing at the time).

Lots to do before I sleep, so to speak, and it will be painful to the pocketbook, but there's not much point in not remedying - at least as far as I am able - the issues which got us here.

 

[centerline]

the consensus is that we were chronically undercharging. I'm attempting to remedy that with more solar.

Adding more solar is NOT the answer here... what NEEDS TO HAPPEN is the charge controller needs to be set to charge at the correct voltage for those batteries....

You could hook up to the solar grid of new york city and STIIL not charge your 4 little batteries IF the controller is shutting down early, because its set that way. ....adjust the output voltage of the controller.

As for needing more solar, people overlook the FACT that there is a huge amount of power not being utilized due to the .2 or .3 of a volt that they are missing in the recharge of their batteries.
The topped up .5 of a volt holds the largest amout of usable energy in the battery, and if you arent getting it in there, its a weak battery
Bring the batteries up to where they should be and you will be very happy with the improvement... its not always about spending and adding more, but sometimes its about fine tuning to get the most oit of what we already have

 

[Maine Sail]

That bulged cell was the same as the others in the L16 (all 3 1.258 corrected for temp), so I have no idea as to why it should have bulged. But that was a deal killer for me; it's a new bank for Flying Pig.

Batteries generally don't "bulge" unless they have been over-charged or been over charged and gone over temp (over 125F).. Seeing as your solar controller is permanently set to "equalize" and your KISS is "unregulated" when you leave the boat for any extended period of time the batteries will eventually become over charged. Add to that the fact that your batteries became out of balance one could have been being overcharged at the same time others were being under charged......

There is a HUGE difference between a regulated voltage at the correct levels (14.7V - 14.8V) with correct absorption duration (minimum 3-4 hours but preferably longer) and completely unregulated charging.

 

[Skip Gundlach]

Wow. This is going to be challenging, as, being the old fart (soon 72) I am, I can't figure out how to quote AND leave the comments I made prompting the stuff I'd want to respond to.

So, I'll try some copy/paste and see if it can possibly make any sense:

Me:
↑
Symptoms, they agreed, pointed to chronic undercharging. Likely the causewas promoted by either and/or both being misled, perhaps, by our Tri-Metric
2022 monitor, as the batteries aged, or merely our not letting them charge
fully enough before shutting off our Honda 2000.


MaineSails:
Even below you stated that you only discharged 40% of the assumed capacity yet your voltage dipped to 11.3V which is much closer to 0% - 15% SOC. You are still putting too much weight on your Ah counter.

You seem to be cherry picking what you want to hear as a solution and have apparently chosen to ignore much of the very sage advice you've received on charging at the proper absorption voltages here and elsewhere.

Response:
I agree about the AhCounter, though I'd hate to give up the information it CAN give me (such as how much is going out or coming in at any given time, and what AH have been consumed over what period, even if it has no relationship whatsoever to actual SOC) if I went to the Balmar.

I read your extensive review of the BSC and like the net result, but would miss the info I now have available (presume that I won't use it for decisions as to battery state), I think. It was late at night, and I only read it all once, so I might misremember, but I think that was your conclusion as well. Did I remember that part correctly?

As to the sage advice, and ignoring it, I'm uncertain as to what you refer; so far the extent of what I have done is to attempt, as you refer to it later, a band-aid to extend the life of our unknown-quality battery bank, but have concluded that even though one pair seems up to snuff, it's time for a new bank of batteries.

Apparently you feel there is some other solution?

↑Me:
We moved onto a dock to be able to take advantage of the adequate power to run both our 70A inverter/charger, and our 40A shore charger.

MaineSails:
At what absorption voltages and absorption duration are you going to be charging the next bank?

Response:
Heh. No clue right now; too busy solving sourcing. However, I gather I want to see 14.7 for a long time. Given my available (even with new solar) sources, I'm highly unlikely to stress the new bank with too much bulk, and maybe not even absorption, should all of my controllers decide that continuous application of maximum amps were appropriate. Should I get the BSC, I'll be paying attention mostly to SOC, I presume.
↑
Me:
We also followed one's suggestion of getting a 200W bulb, and running all AC devices possible (to the max 1500W) and everything we could turn on to achieve a quicker draw--down.

MaineSails:
Did this person not understand Peukert?

Response:
I can't say, directly, but as he wrote a short book on battery care, and was head tech for Rolls-Surrette for some decades, I suspect he did/does.

In our case, "all available AC devices" (that we were willing to use to pull it down overnight, while we slept) were two laptops, 200w incandescent and 14w Fluorescent bulbs (the added 200w helping immensely in speed of drawdown), and a 140w inverter we use for cell phones (that being the only we could obtain in Abaco when our previous 80w died). So, we weren't really pushing the amps out, but loading it enough that waiting for the voltage drop wasn't an all-day affair.
↑

Me:
So, oddly for us, of course, instead of trying to minimize use, we were maximizing it, turning off our shore power at night. For several days, it looked promising, as the consumed AH went deeper each time, before it got low enough to kick out the inverter or the freezer. However, the deepest we could get it was 40% discharged before it got low enough (11.3 or so; we were asleep so I never actually saw that happen).

MaineSails:
Here is likely why your first bank was murdered. You are putting far too much trust in -Ah's with not a clue as to what the actual Ah capacity of the bank is?
(amp counter rant deleted as repetitive)

Response:
Agreed, after reading your bible on the subject. And, as it probably is a question which will come up, as I don't have anywhere near the ability to set up for testing, let alone as used vs. standing alone in a test environment, it's likely that I will have to rely solely on SOC, given how inherently inaccurate amp counters are, even with frequent adjustment.

So, given that (and, I'd expect, nearly any cruiser's) reality, how does one avoid becoming a serial murderer?

↑Me:
Various pros have expressed that my charge sources - aside from more solar being always a good thing - are fine,

MaineSails:
In a PSOC application, unless your Deka's are charging at 14.6V - 14.7V (temp compensated) they are not going to be fine. Deka L-16's do even better at 14.8V but Deka recommends 14.7V for this type of use.

These batteries then need to be charged, at absorption voltage (14.7V) until the change in net accepted current, at absorption voltage, is less than 0.1A over a 1 hour period or 12 hours of absorption max, which ever comes first. What this means is this;

14.7V & +2.1A beginning of measured hour & end of measured hour 14.7V & +2.1A = Full Battery Bank.

14.7V & +2.1A beginning of measured hour & end of measured hour 14.7V & +1.9A = Battery Bank NOT Full

Battery voltage rises to 14.7V and 12 hours later this voltage needs to be dropped to float. (not usually a worry with the crappy charge equipment we have that uses "egg-timers")

Response:
Agreed - other than that I expect to go back to USBattery at 420AH nominal; I'd have to look at their literature to see their specific recommendations. But I will have a better understanding, and a more critical eye this time around.
↑
Me:
but that I need to reset my monitor to
new or zeroed values every time I equalize, and spend a great deal more time
in my float-off charging.

MaineSails:
Unless you know the exact Ah capacity of your battery, because you've physically tested it, you need to ignore your Ah counter, as related to SOC, other than for voltage. In other words STOP DISCHARGING AT 12.2V!!!

Response:
LOL agreed. That number was a distinct rarity before the recent events...

↑Me:
The best solution for US will be to nearly double
our solar capacity with two 345w panels, exchanging for our 3 (370w, 11
years old and not nearly as efficient as the new ones would be),

MaineSails:
This is your take away? Try adjusting your controllers absorption voltage and absorption-duration FIRST... For a cruiser your solar should almost never go into float because there is usually insufficient solar time in each day to get a flooded deep cycle battery to 100% SOC unless you started early in the AM using fossil fuels to push through bulk. More solar is always a good thing but your charging voltages, as previously referenced, are grossly inadequate for a PSOC application.

You also never accurately answered how this "bank" is used. Is it a contiguously wired 740Ah bank or two 370Ah banks? This can also make a huge difference?

How do you plan to commission the new series batteries to ensure they are in SOC balance? If you don't start correctly, and charge at the correct voltages for PSOC use your new batteries will suffer the same fate...

Response:
So far, my takeaway, regardless of charge time, is that I don't have enough solar and wind input, regardless. I blame my refrigeration (prior threads perhaps here, but many certainly in Cruisers Forum), and that's a work in progress to attempt to lessen that load.

Our solar controller, due to my perception of never really having enough of either voltage or amperage, is in equalize mode full time.

And, unless I missed something in reading the manuals, aside from a temperature adjustment on the 40 shore power (that one being voltage alone), there is no fiddling with rates of any of the states of charge.

As to my anticipated future regimen, again given my reality, not easily altered other than to add capacity to a charger (one done, when the solar is swapped, and maybe the Xantrex next?), I'm hopeful that my bulk charging will not be so extreme in depth, and that the added green capacity will allow just that (full charging in the rest of the sunny day).

I've attempted to say, repetively, in other response both here and in the original that this is a single bank of whatever it combines to in cumulative AH available. I agree that likely the nominal 740AH is now not nearly that, due, if for nothing else, to their being 30 months old.

As to SOC balance going in, I'm going to require whatever source I wind up using to put the new batteries on charge for a couple of days, rather than, as was the case with the current bank, taking them as shipped from East Penn. If they don't match up, I won't take them. I'd expect that (likely source Royal Battery in Palm Bay) they should not only be able to do that, but present me with a written report on each.

I have, and will use, a temperature compensated hydrometer, to verify. Beyond that, I'm not sure what I can do, but eagerly look forward to your recommendations, nearly certain to be different than my take-away, as I'm repetitively reminded that I'm only slightly smarter than a box of rocks as concerns how to maintain my bank :/

Thanks, again, for the erudition, depth and instruction. There MAY be hope for me.

 

[Skip Gundlach]

I had said:
Skip Gundlach said: ↑
the consensus is that we were chronically undercharging. I'm attempting to remedy that with more solar.

Adding more solar is NOT the answer here... what NEEDS TO HAPPEN is the charge controller needs to be set to charge at the correct voltage for those batteries....

You could hook up to the solar grid of new york city and STIIL not charge your 4 little batteries IF the controller is shutting down early, because its set that way. ....adjust the output voltage of the controller.

As for needing more solar, people overlook the FACT that there is a huge amount of power not being utilized due to the .2 or .3 of a volt that they are missing in the recharge of their batteries.
The topped up .5 of a volt holds the largest amout of usable energy in the battery, and if you arent getting it in there, its a weak battery
Bring the batteries up to where they should be and you will be very happy with the improvement... its not always about spending and adding more, but sometimes its about fine tuning to get the most out of what we already have

Assuming that I manage (somehow, with what seems to be un-adjustable controllers) to bring the batteries to full charge, every time, is more solar in any way bad? I didn't look at it as the end solution, just a (presumed) huge contribution.

It happens that there is a marine electrician (does nothing other than that, not a vendor of anything) here in the Vero Beach City Marina; he'll be doing a survey of what we have, verifying output, cabling, setup and the like, as well as doing the installation of the new panels (anyone want some perfectly good Kyocera panels with frame and interconnect wiring; total 370W either about 10 or 12 years old (the 130 was a replacement in April 2007 for one damaged by the wind generator hitting it on the way overboard in the storm preceding our wreck, and the other 2 are 120s, installed in Mid 2005).

and...

Batteries generally don't "bulge" unless they have been over-charged or been over charged and gone over temp (over 125F).. Seeing as your solar controller is permanently set to "equalize" and your KISS is "unregulated" when you leave the boat for any extended period of time the batteries will eventually become over charged. Add to that the fact that your batteries became out of balance one could have been being overcharged at the same time others were being under charged......

There is a HUGE difference between a regulated voltage at the correct levels (14.7V - 14.8V) with correct absorption duration (minimum 3-4 hours but preferably longer) and completely unregulated charging.

When we left the boat unattended (with nearly all loads removed save a few PortFans and normal ghost loads), we put the solar controller back on 3-stage; if (as has seemed unlikely from my ham-handed attempts at verification) we were ever at 'full' charge with the wind generator on, the solar would drop out. Our typical wind might generate 0-10A steady, but occasional gusts might bump 15 or 20A; a good 30 knot gust would peg the meter at over 30, but wind consistently over 20 would cause the KISS to shut down until the thermostats cooled. The sweet spot is 15-20, where it will continue to make amps without cutout - but rare anywhere we are other than occasionally in the Bahamas. We love the amps it provides, but (without proper recording equipment to verify) it seems, on passing the meters every time I go into the walkthrough, that the solar gives orders of magnitude more cumulative amp hours.

So, while I don't dispute the facts as presented, given what we'd see on the accepted-to-be-garbage I/O TriMetric 2020, where a positive cumulative AH reading was singular in its appearance(s - though I can't remember more than one), it seems unlikely that it had an overcharge issue.

And, FWIW in any previous measurements, normally the pair that it occupied was ambient or close to it, while the other pair regularly was warmer (though never 'hot'). Indeed, during our aggressive charging/discharging cycles, the highest I saw was under 100F.

So, going forward I see the following decided and potential changes/additions:

Improve solar output - new 2x 345w 21+% efficient panels
Add SOC Balmar meter - and figure out how to take advantage of it
New inter-battery cabling in the battery box (TBD, as recommended and specified by MaineSails)
New cabling, maybe, elsewhere, as needed
New USBattery L16H-XC2 420AH batteries (4)

Aside from being a great deal smarter, what else?

Thanks.

 

[Maine Sail]

Skip,

Your problems are many;

#1 Insane Ah consumption. 250Ah's each day, from just the refrigeration, is insane for the charge current you have available. It sounds as if you exceed 300Ah in daily consumption. Either cut Ah consumption or drastically up your charging current capability. I have world cruisers who barely break -100Ah's per day with all the refrigeration they need. I have a Saga 43 with Sea Frost that burns less than -40Ah's each day for refrigeration, even in the tropics, and he spills over for a freezer. I have a Caliber that burns maybe -60Ah's per day with a Frigoboat Spill over... Both of these guys have immense insulation large banks for the daily usage and both banks are well 7 years old... -250Ah's is simply astronomical for refrigeration consumption. Based on your electricians wiring of your batteries I would say start by choosing the techs who work on your boat very carefully.

#2 Lack of adequate charge current. You'll really need 25% of Ah capacity when charge sources are hot. This may mean 30-35% "as rated" in amperage current to achieve 25% when hot. Even inverter chargers de-rate/put out less when hot.. For an 800Ah bank a charge rate of .25C is 200A during bulk charging and a Honda EU2K is not going to handle that. You will need to run the Honda and your main engine with a much upgraded alternator. Most of my customers who get anywhere near -200Ah's/day are running two alts on the engine plus massive amounts of solar and for those with gen sets often two large 120A or bigger inverter/chargers. Their banks are also in the 900-1200Ah range.

#3 Battery bank too small for expected consumption. Your bank, even at 800Ah, is simply too small for PSOC cyclic use at your Ah consumption. Even if we figure you may be able to get back to 85%, from 50%, when PSOC cycling, that means a real world usable capacity of just 280Ah's 50% SOC to 85% SOC and you seem to be using -250Ah's with just refrigeration alone.

#4 Voltage drop issues. Based on wiring etc. I am going to guess you may have some voltage drop in your charging system. This also harms and limits how much the bank can accept.

#5 Inadequate charge regulation for your battery type / chemistry. If your chargers, regulators/controllers can't be set for both the correct voltage and a user selectable absorption duration (wind is ON/OFF regulation not CV) there is really nothing you can do to improve the situation except for MUCH longer charging each day.

Chargers, controllers and regulators must be chosen to work with the bank you've selected. L-16's in PSOC use love and need high absorption voltages for multiple hours each day in order to survive. Good quality charging products such as Balmar alternator regulators, Magnum or Victron Inverter/Chargers, Morningstar, Outback, Midnite, Victron programmable MPPT's etc. are the types of products that need to be chosen. Crappy products that use AGM/GEL/FLA "dip switches", or ones that offer only two or three "pre-sets", and do not offer you the control you need for voltage and duration, or can't adequately calculate for duration, should be thrown in the trash. PSOC use is an entirely different ball of wax and only off-grid see the type of PSOC abuses we see in the cruising segment.

#6 Too infrequent 100% SOC recharges. Ideally this needs to happen every three days but at a minimum every 5 days. If you do not do this then you will usually need bi-weekly equalization. Any more than 7-10 days between full recharges and capacity is disappearing quickly as the unconverted sulfate begins to cluster and harden. Hard sulfate is not re-convertable even with equalization.

#7 Learn how to conduct a 20 hour capacity test. This is the only way to really know the state of health of your bank. As you approach 70% of as new rated capacity start thinking about new batteries.

Options:

A) Invest in more charging amperage and better voltage regulation & duration control and address your issues..


B) This option is to simply suck it up and replace your batteries every two years. Believe it or not sometimes this is the least costly solution especially if you coastal cruise near the US or even Canada.

The problem with this solution is a catastrophic failure in a place where you can't easily get batteries. I have had cruisers opt not to replace their banks when I suggested they do, then have that same bank cost 6X as much in the Bahama's, Labrador or Greece etc. when they failed. For the price difference they could have added more solar or invested in better charge equipment and still had it.....

As for the Smart Gauge, it is an excellent tool for giving reliable SOC predictions. You do not need to give up the information from the Bogart monitor just stop relying on it for SOC...

 

[centerline]

I had said:
Skip Gundlach said: ↑
the consensus is that we were chronically undercharging. I'm attempting to remedy that with more solar.
Assuming that I manage (somehow, with what seems to be un-adjustable controllers) to bring the batteries to full charge, every time, is more solar in any way bad?

the answer is NO. more solar isnt bad, but if you cant set the controller so it puts out what the batteries need, then you arent solving any problems.
after replacing your damaged batteries, you have the options that Maine Sail pointed out.... either upgrade to a controller that you can adjust, and adjust the settings to work as needed, or live with the never ending problem... I also agree that 250amps per day for refrigeration is beyond reason, and that "usage" management will go a long way in saving you money and headaches.
adding more potential energy (solar panels) to a faulty system is not making the system better... it never will until the fault is fixed.
repairing the system you already have AND studying your usages to see where the power is being lost/consumed, and what you can do to reduce it, should be your first priority...

 

[Skip Gundlach]

Well, the world turns.

After over a week on the dock at float, I remeasured SGR at, depending on the cell and maybe how well I pointed my IR thermometer, not less than 64F and not more than 66F (only one cell). As "batteries" as previously discussed, B1 (right hand pair) was 64 throughout, and B2 (left hand pair) was 65 with one 66 cell (maybe).

Temperature adjusted takes -2, B1 was 1.265 in the close one and 1.260 in the far one, making them marginal, and B2 close 1.295+2x1.290 and far all 1.300.

I'm not at all sure, on re-examination, that the mentioned bulge wasn't normal expansion in a relatively small space making it seem more dramatic than it was (if that's correct). In any event, we're replacing them, on which more anon. However, my potential taker is now gone; anyone who wants two 370AH batteries at a great charge (as above) for core charge, drop me a mail my name all one word at gmail. Probably will replace next week. I'll stay on the dock long enough to do some conditioning before leaving.

Here's a better picture of what we have (you previously saw my last/not-current bank) now:

I'm addressing all of the various items mentioned; so far my adding refrigerant to the system seems to have made a difference, but the real world will tell. I will be ecstatic if that proves to be the problem, and equally annoyed that it wasn't set up right to begin with if that should turn out to be so. The box is the same as was easily served by a bd50-powered keel-cooled Frigoboat (see threads on Cruisers Forum) at half the energy, so if I can't, soon solve this problem, as much as it pain$ me, I'll ditch and start over.

I was stunned at the cost of the solar panels I expected to use, so we're still dithering on that. Blue Sky and SunPower both agree my system is appropriately wired and controlled for the expansion in mind. We'll never achieve .25C with the power (Honda 2000, solar, wind) at optimum (new panels 57A, inverter/charger 70A, wind 20A in what will be over 800AH battery; even on shore power we'd only add 40A on the shore charger), so the best we can hope for is to charge as much as we can and have the solar and wind do the float-out.

I had the lead electrician for Hartge Yacht Yard, an upstart begun in 1865, do a survey of our systems and installation. ( http://www.hartgeyard.com/marine electronics.htm) Aside from some cleanup of terminals (or, as I will in all cases) and some cable upsizing, he had no criticisms of our installation. An excerpt:

"-Other than some battery terminal connections, I did not find anything egregious in your battery box. I really think that the premature battery failure is attributable to bad information from your amp counter. Because your amp counter does provide amps and amp hours depleted, I would recommend only a Balmar Smart Gauge to show you a more accurate “state of charge”. (website enclosed) http://www.balmar.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/PDS-44-SG-1224.pdf

"-As discussed, It would be advantageous to up-size your battery cables from both the “House bank” and “Start bank” to a 2/0 AGM wire (both positive and negative). Summarily, on the positive side, from the house battery to the battery switch and from the Start Battery to the battery switch, and from the battery switch to the engine starter. The positive from the common post on the battery switch to the “house buss” is probably okay. On the negative side, replace with 2/0 cable from the batteries to the negative buss or engine as required."

I'll be resetting my Tri-Metric frequently (guessing at the actual bank size as it ages) but using (watch your order box) a Balmar Smart monitor for better reality. My conditioning likely will be sufficient to 'train' it. However, as asked before, I'm now asking again for MS to tell me how (terminal to terminal) to escape his issues with my cabling. I expect to go back with 2-0 cables everywhere, even though as seen, there's no way I'd charge at those amps, and certainly never discharge (typical load under 20A and mostly under 10A) at a rate pushing what we have - but I'll do it anyway.

But, back to the cabling. Here's what Rolls suggests for cabling. If you chop off all but the end pairs, that is pretty much what my box looks like:

It appears they have no issue with cable lengths, other than that the interior ones which are alike are the same length. The negative is massively (relative to other jumpers) longer, apparently of no issue (?) My bank, as you see, looks like that. The terminals are in the same relative position, but the cells are L/R rather than top to bottom. However, my leads come in at the bottom of that picture.

Starting at bottom right and moving clockwise to top right (8 total terminals), what cables should go to what, avoiding any overlap being apparently important, and length of outgoing/incoming cables being apparently unimportant?

Thanks.

 

[Skip Gundlach]

PS.

I dug into the solar controller manual - it DOES have multiple options for trigger voltages in the 3 stages...
I'll open it up and set it for the parameters whichever (likely Trojan) manufacturer it is specifies.

 

[Maine Sail]

But, back to the cabling.
.

Series equal lengths & parallel's equal lengths. Take offs on opposite sides of bank. This avoids all crossing of wires and potential shorts..

 

[Skip Gundlach]

Series equal lengths & parallel's equal lengths. Take offs on opposite sides of bank. This avoids all crossing of wires and potential shorts..

Thanks so much. As there's no practical way to run the cable out the top (as presented here) and my terminals are reversed in orientation (negative and positive are in the same position, reversed), and we want to avoid any crossing of lines, as (essentially) shown in the Rolls diagram, would it also suffice to run the (now positive) line around to the right, down, and over, to the exit, and continue to the buss? And, I think I understand you to say that the top and bottom lines shown (+ to + and - to -) should be the same length as the connectors making the 12V pair?

And, just to clarify in the event of any confusion in my description, my bank looks physically the same other than that the +/- terminals are reversed. I could reverse (rotate 180°) the batteries and end up looking like the above.

Thanks again.

L8R

Skip

 

[Maine Sail]

Thanks so much. As there's no practical way to run the cable out the top (as presented here) and my terminals are reversed in orientation (negative and positive are in the same position, reversed), and we want to avoid any crossing of lines, as (essentially) shown in the Rolls diagram, would it also suffice to run the (now positive) line around to the right, down, and over, to the exit, and continue to the buss? And, I think I understand you to say that the top and bottom lines shown (+ to + and - to -) should be the same length as the connectors making the 12V pair?

And, just to clarify in the event of any confusion in my description, my bank looks physically the same other than that the +/- terminals are reversed. I could reverse (rotate 180°) the batteries and end up looking like the above.

Thanks again.

L8R

Skip

Skip,

Rotate my image like this.......

If you can't drill a hole in the correct location out of the box, use some cable tie mounts up next to the lip of the battery box to run your neg or positive around the box. If you insist on two wires exiting through one hole put some hose over the positive wire where is passes through the exit hole.. I don't see any good reason why the box and lid could not be notched in a location to prevent wiring crosses..

 

[Skip Gundlach]

Thanks! Altogether OT, is there any issue about long-term storage for your Butyl Tape?

Oh, and just to confirm - all other than the +/- supply line should be the same length?