A Liveaboard friend has a question

[Charlie Jones s/v Tehani]

She's on a dock in St Micheals Maryland for the winter.

Her question which as a southern sailor I have no clue
The north wind blows the water out of the little creek, lifting several sea cocks out of the water. Mainly cockpit drains (this is a Westsail 32) How can she be sure she doesn't freeze the water trapped in the center of the seacock that is, in the valve itself

 

[capta]

If the thruhulls are out of the water, why would there be any water in the seacocks, if they are open?

 

[Bill Roosa]

Basically you can't which is why you would want to leave (or at least open for a time) the thru-hulls open so they can drain. Once drained they could be closed for the season assuming they are not drains. Drains need to be left open all the time. which kinda begs the question, why would you put a valve on a cockpit drain if you have to leave it open all the time?

 

[Benny17441]

Inspect all hoses and clamps and then leave all open at least for the few days of freezing weather you may get. Bill is right, doubt there would valves on the cockpit drains.

 

[Charlie Jones s/v Tehani]

Guess I should be more specific. The one she is really concerned about is the engine intake- there is a hole in the valve that the water passes through when open- When closed, that hole still has water inside. She will have to leave the boat for a few weeks after Christmas and wondered if that froze, could it damage the seacock. Remember- this is only a problem if a hard north wind blows the water out- the boat then sits on bottom and the valves are exposed. I told her probably not, since they have 6 hour tides, but I've never BEEN in waters where a hard, hard freeze occurs

 

[Sandy Stone]

why would you put a valve on a cockpit drain if you have to leave it open all the time?

To replace the hose with the boat in the water? To stop water ingress if hose is damaged? Maybe insurance requires seacocks on all underwater thruhulls?

 

[Pirate Dave]

Hi. I have lived aboard in the northeast for ten years. Tell her to leave the seacocks open. They will drain when the boat is lifted and fill once the wind stops blowing the water out of the creek. The movement of the water will not allow the seacocks to freeze. Once they fill again they should be protected by the water temperature under the boat. I have had the boat hard freeze with ice around it with no problems

 

[centerline]

so what you are saying is, the boat is sometimes "drying out" between tides in freezing weather.

about all she can do is either use a heater near the valve or leave it open... a drain cock being left open is very much less dangerous than leaving the raw water intake open, because it isnt just the valve that can freeze and break, but also the filter, pump housing, or weak fittings, so even if she were to leave the valve open to allow it to drain, the other components of the system inside the hull could freeze and break... when the tide comes back in, the boat floods.
wrapping it with insulation could help it retain the heat from the water at the last tide, because the air temps in the boat may never get above freezing, whereas the water is generally above freezing, in which case insulation might help.

ive personally seen boats flooded twice this way, and its probably the most common reason for unattended boats to flood in freezing weather, so its not just a theory... my 34 was a victim when it was owned by the previous owner. the strainer bowl broke. luckily it was spotted before the water got up to the wood inside, so there is no marks left from the mishap.

 

[LeslieTroyer]

I would be more worried about the sea strainer, raw water pump, heat exchanger, muffler...... than the thru hull -
close the seacock and drain all of these....

 

[Skipper]

It's hard to damage a bronze seacock by freezing. It can happen, but you might have to be farther north.
Leaving seacocks open is easy remedy on the hard. In the water, not as good. Seacocks should be closed when boat is left alone, unless it's a cockpit drain.
She can winterize the seacock. 2 options:
1. Remove the drain screw and blow out the water with an air can (hardware or computer store) with the seacock closed. Replace screw.
-Or, if the screw is inaccessible, or won't budge, there's option 2 below. If the screw won't move don't force it. Those screws may be hard to replace - I think the threads are odd on some old seacocks.
2. Close seacock, remove hose from other end of whatever it's attach to, or attach a temporary hose a couple feet long, fill hose with -100 antifreeze, open seacock for a second and then close. This will fill the seacock cone (barrel) with AF, displacing the water.
Replace original hose.
Use -100 (blue), as it performs a giant amount better than -50 (pink) when mixed with water.

 

[Pirate Dave]

Actually the cause of most sinkings up here in the winter are the boats that are left unattended. Snow and ice collect and block the cockpit drains and the boat fills up with snow, ice and water over time. The weight of that will usually pull the boat under.

 

[Monterey385]

Confused, why wouldn't one simply run anti-freeze through System, winterizing it, and close seacocks at the end of the procedure? This replaces any water with anti-freeze and neutralizes the effect of the tides.

 

[Davidasailor26]

Confused, why wouldn't one simply run anti-freeze through System, winterizing it, and close seacocks at the end of the procedure? This replaces any water with anti-freeze and neutralizes the effect of the tides.

Because typically to winterize you take the hose off of the seacock and run AF from that point on. That still leaves the seacock itself unprotected. Skipper's suggestion to back flow the seacock with AF would likely work. Probably even better if the back flow can be done on the first blow out tide to clear any water out of the seacock, then just keep it closed after that point.

 

[Monterey385]

Because typically to winterize you take the hose off of the seacock and run AF from that point on. That still leaves the seacock itself unprotected. Skipper's suggestion to back flow the seacock with AF would likely work. Probably even better if the back flow can be done on the first blow out tide to clear any water out of the seacock, then just keep it closed after that point.

That explains my confusion, I typically run antifreeze in both directions (ie. backflowing just like Skipper suggested).

 

[Skipper]

Close seacock, remove hose from other end of whatever it's attach to, or attach a temporary hose a couple feet long, fill hose with -100 antifreeze, open seacock for a second and then close. This will fill the seacock cone (barrel) with AF, displacing the water.
Replace original hose.
Use -100 (blue), as it performs a giant amount better than -50 (pink) when mixed with water.

This doesn't require mentioning but I will anyway :
You can do this with a sink seacock without removing the hose, of course.
And, you can do it with the head seacock without hose removal, which is pretty good. Just pump AF through the overboard discharge right from the head, then immediately close the seacock. Again, use -100. And enough to ensure it has filled the seacock. I used to do this as part of the head winterization process, pulling AF through the head intake hose from the jug, and pushing it overboard through flush discharge, then close the seacock. Done.
You can't really do this pumping from the holding tank, as there would be some foulness in the line which would go overboard. I guess if you're offshore maybe. Easier to do it direct if you have that option. Holding tank winterization is a different topic.

 

[Charlie Jones s/v Tehani]

I have forwarded the link to this thread to her. She can decide what to do -thanks

 

[Ken Cross]

Inspect all hoses and clamps and then leave all open at least for the few days of freezing weather you may get. Bill is right, doubt there would valves on the cockpit drains.

So you can stop the flow of it starts leaking.

 

[BlowMeAway]

Wait!!! What??? Just catching up with this, sorry.

A live-aboard with no heat in Maryland...in the brackish water at St. Michaels. Not likely. Now I'm very confused. Perhaps I just don't understand...which is most likely. The boat settles into the sediment, and the areas above the water line are exposed, when the creek gets blown out by North winds. Are we talking about a Westsail 32' with an incredibly full length keel? And which side gets exposed when the boat lists when the water runs out.

Dude, if it's a live aboard there's shore power, I can only assume. Just buy some short lengths of electrical heat tape and wrap the suspect failure valves. The heat tapes even come with thermostats these days...(Lowes, Home Depot). Otherwise keep whatever heat source flowing inside the boat and enjoy the holidays. Image below from what I know of the Westsail line:

 

[DAVA390]

Don't think anyone identified it as a Westsail.

 

[centerline]

Don't think anyone identified it as a Westsail.

but then, it doesnt matter what brand, type, size or color the boat it is anyway....